Mr or Mrs?
#71
(11-24-2021, 04:18 PM)Spandaubaggie Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 04:02 PM)Squid Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:34 PM)Duffers Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:24 PM)Sotv Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 01:14 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Within reason Sotv you have the right to identify someone who is transgender by their original gender if you want, but don't expect them to like you or respect you when you do that.

Lots of people like to express views that they know others will strongly disagree with and/or be offended by. Then they get defensive when those people are offended and voice their strong disagreement.

Conversely I suppose they can't complain if if someone doesn't like or respect them for not respecting their views either. 
Your 2nd paragraph could very easily apply to many within the transgender movement I suppose. 
W

Depends what the views are, if I have asked to be addressed in line with a certain gender then I would expect people to respect that wish. As I’ve said before, if a bloke wants to be known as a woman or vice versa then how is it anyone else’s business or place to judge? (Assuming they’re not in prison or planning to compete in the Olympics)

Ultimately how difficult is it to just respect someone’s wishes?

Because where is the line where respecting someone else's wishes impacts your rights?

You are happily in agreement that prisons and sports should remain single-sex, but in the real world, women have received abuse and threats for discussion those matters to the point where groups like Fair Play For Women and A Woman's Place have to meet at secret locations. We've just witnessed a Professor being hounded out of her job for those views - despite publicly stating that she would always respect someone's pronouns. 

Talking about basic female human biology has become so controversial that Kier Starmer says it's wrong to state women have cervixes. 

I don't recall ever being asked if I was happy to be referred to as a "menstruator", but that's perfectly acceptable in the Lancet now 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwp...0/fulltext

I believe in being polite and respectful to the beliefs of others too, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of 50% of the population.
And this is the crux of it succinctly put.

In life there's more opinions than there's grains of sand and there is also the right to change opinions. It's good to say I've changed my mind as it shows a lack of stubbornness, or does it show wishy-washiness? All about opinions.

My issue is simply let's discuss such issues, but I find the irony of the woke crowd head-shakingly stupid as they burrow themselves further and further into identity politics of which this is a strand.

I hate the current Tory government, despise the far right, yet I'll get labelled as some far right Daily Mail reader by Duffers and his cliche for simply stating I think it's stupid to pander to what a 1 in 1000 minority? who, dare I say many have severe mental issues.

The bending over backwardness to these people is at the expense of a balanced society, where change is gradual and carefully thought through.

However, woe betide anyone like me and others who dares stand up and defend deeply held beliefs about something as fundamental as gender. You just get showered in abuse by the keyboard warriors. It's why most people self-edit to silence on social media to stop 1000s yelling at you as if you want gays and transgender people stoned and beheaded.

All sensible conversation and debate is being shut down by these extreme rigid left wing types.

Meanwhile we can't get a strong opposition to the Tories because the likes of Keir Starmer too is walking on eggshells, whilst he's probably thinking too what the fuck can I do with these clowns fixated on their identity whilst theirs bigger issues like the NHS and the economy, housing, transport, education etc, etc? 

Proper odd stuff, but you can't reason with the unreasonable.

Yes Spandau, you are indeed the voice of level-headed, grown up chat. I mean, what are your weekly “look at what these woke idiots are doing” threads if not an attempt for intellectual debate?

It’s telling that myself, SOTV and Squid have all managed discourse at a civil level in this thread. Whereas it’s only been  yourself who has been advocating punching posters and calling them tools.

You’re the real grown up here mate, never let anyone tell you otherwise.
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#72
Squid Wrote:
Duffers Wrote:
Sotv Wrote:
Shabby Russian Wrote:
Sotv Wrote:This is where it gets tricky. Can someone choose a pronoun or identity for themselves but then others be free to ignore that choice and still refer to them as how they were previously identified? 
 
Personally I don’t care if Harry wants to call himself Hilda and work towards getting their cock chopped off but to demand that people MUST say they are a woman or address them as miss etc is to disrespect the feelings of some traditional thinkers who would never accept dropping what they see as a scientific reality. It’s not really for anyone to question or criticize that if we are operating in a world where we are primarily driven by the feelings of people.

Within reason Sotv you have the right to identify someone who is transgender by their original gender if you want, but don't expect them to like you or respect you when you do that.

Lots of people like to express views that they know others will strongly disagree with and/or be offended by. Then they get defensive when those people are offended and voice their strong disagreement.

Conversely I suppose they can't complain if if someone doesn't like or respect them for not respecting their views either. 
Your 2nd paragraph could very easily apply to many within the transgender movement I suppose. 
W

Depends what the views are, if I have asked to be addressed in line with a certain gender then I would expect people to respect that wish. As I’ve said before, if a bloke wants to be known as a woman or vice versa then how is it anyone else’s business or place to judge? (Assuming they’re not in prison or planning to compete in the Olympics)

Ultimately how difficult is it to just respect someone’s wishes?

Because where is the line where respecting someone else's wishes impacts your rights?

You are happily in agreement that prisons and sports should remain single-sex, but in the real world, women have received abuse and threats for discussion those matters to the point where groups like Fair Play For Women and A Woman's Place have to meet at secret locations. We've just witnessed a Professor being hounded out of her job for those views - despite publicly stating that she would always respect someone's pronouns. 

Talking about basic female human biology has become so controversial that Kier Starmer says it's wrong to state women have cervixes. 

I don't recall ever being asked if I was happy to be referred to as a "menstruator", but that's perfectly acceptable in the Lancet now 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwp...0/fulltext

I believe in being polite and respectful to the beliefs of others too, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of 50% of the population.

In the Stonewall interview I referred to above, the Stonewall representative was referring to women as CIS women.  How bloody stupid is that, what is wrong with simply "woman?"   A woman is a woman, whatever anyone else thinks or wants. With some huge surgical interventions then change is possible, until that happens though, we are what we are.  The same person also declined to comment on the university lecturer debacle by stating she wasn't aware of the exact details! 
 Of course we have to respect people for what they believe in, but we don't have to believe they are something they are not and then behave as if they were. How could that help?
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#73
(11-24-2021, 04:02 PM)Squid Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:34 PM)Duffers Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:24 PM)Sotv Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 01:14 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 11:07 AM)Sotv Wrote: This is where it gets tricky. Can someone choose a pronoun or identity for themselves but then others be free to ignore that choice and still refer to them as how they were previously identified? 
 
Personally I don’t care if Harry wants to call himself Hilda and work towards getting their cock chopped off but to demand that people MUST say they are a woman or address them as miss etc is to disrespect the feelings of some traditional thinkers who would never accept dropping what they see as a scientific reality. It’s not really for anyone to question or criticize that if we are operating in a world where we are primarily driven by the feelings of people.

Within reason Sotv you have the right to identify someone who is transgender by their original gender if you want, but don't expect them to like you or respect you when you do that.

Lots of people like to express views that they know others will strongly disagree with and/or be offended by. Then they get defensive when those people are offended and voice their strong disagreement.

Conversely I suppose they can't complain if if someone doesn't like or respect them for not respecting their views either. 
Your 2nd paragraph could very easily apply to many within the transgender movement I suppose. 
W

Depends what the views are, if I have asked to be addressed in line with a certain gender then I would expect people to respect that wish. As I’ve said before, if a bloke wants to be known as a woman or vice versa then how is it anyone else’s business or place to judge? (Assuming they’re not in prison or planning to compete in the Olympics)

Ultimately how difficult is it to just respect someone’s wishes?

Because where is the line where respecting someone else's wishes impacts your rights?

You are happily in agreement that prisons and sports should remain single-sex, but in the real world, women have received abuse and threats for discussion those matters to the point where groups like Fair Play For Women and A Woman's Place have to meet at secret locations. We've just witnessed a Professor being hounded out of her job for those views - despite publicly stating that she would always respect someone's pronouns. 

Talking about basic female human biology has become so controversial that Kier Starmer says it's wrong to state women have cervixes. 

I don't recall ever being asked if I was happy to be referred to as a "menstruator", but that's perfectly acceptable in the Lancet now 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwp...0/fulltext

I believe in being polite and respectful to the beliefs of others too, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of 50% of the population.

I’m not even going to attempt to try and understand the situation from a woman’s perspective. Women have had things tougher than men for, well forever, and I’m certainly not gonna try and Wade in with an ill-considered viewpoint.

I’ve got views on it all but I’m happy to accept that I’m very much on the sidelines of this debate.
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#74
In my oldish mind you're determined by the genitalia you're born with. Anyone wanting or needing to be something else is entitled to be. Requesting to be called something different is also OK but not acceptable to get arsey if someone gets it wrong. It'd be a boring world for some if we were all as the bible portrays but some people like boring. I don't think it's possible to get everyone agreeing and accepting the needs and requirements of modern new 'genders' but there's no need to regress back to the dark ages. Personally I don't understand anyone supporting the Vile or the Dingles but I have to accept there are a minority that do. I am guilty of calling them names though.
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#75
(11-23-2021, 07:25 PM)Spandaubaggie Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 07:05 PM)Duffers Wrote: Why does this stuff bother people so much?

Because people feel dictated to by nonsense and a microscopic number of people who are ready to take offence as they are mixed up with their gender and ready to unleash their anger at anyone who may accidentally mislabel them because their identity condition is so rare.

Many feel they are walking on eggshells- most people I know say the same, including good mates in their 30s.

(11-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Duffers Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 04:18 PM)Spandaubaggie Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 04:02 PM)Squid Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:34 PM)Duffers Wrote:
(11-24-2021, 02:24 PM)Sotv Wrote: Conversely I suppose they can't complain if if someone doesn't like or respect them for not respecting their views either. 
Your 2nd paragraph could very easily apply to many within the transgender movement I suppose. 
W

Depends what the views are, if I have asked to be addressed in line with a certain gender then I would expect people to respect that wish. As I’ve said before, if a bloke wants to be known as a woman or vice versa then how is it anyone else’s business or place to judge? (Assuming they’re not in prison or planning to compete in the Olympics)

Ultimately how difficult is it to just respect someone’s wishes?

Because where is the line where respecting someone else's wishes impacts your rights?

You are happily in agreement that prisons and sports should remain single-sex, but in the real world, women have received abuse and threats for discussion those matters to the point where groups like Fair Play For Women and A Woman's Place have to meet at secret locations. We've just witnessed a Professor being hounded out of her job for those views - despite publicly stating that she would always respect someone's pronouns. 

Talking about basic female human biology has become so controversial that Kier Starmer says it's wrong to state women have cervixes. 

I don't recall ever being asked if I was happy to be referred to as a "menstruator", but that's perfectly acceptable in the Lancet now 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwp...0/fulltext

I believe in being polite and respectful to the beliefs of others too, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of 50% of the population.
And this is the crux of it succinctly put.

In life there's more opinions than there's grains of sand and there is also the right to change opinions. It's good to say I've changed my mind as it shows a lack of stubbornness, or does it show wishy-washiness? All about opinions.

My issue is simply let's discuss such issues, but I find the irony of the woke crowd head-shakingly stupid as they burrow themselves further and further into identity politics of which this is a strand.

I hate the current Tory government, despise the far right, yet I'll get labelled as some far right Daily Mail reader by Duffers and his cliche for simply stating I think it's stupid to pander to what a 1 in 1000 minority? who, dare I say many have severe mental issues.

The bending over backwardness to these people is at the expense of a balanced society, where change is gradual and carefully thought through.

However, woe betide anyone like me and others who dares stand up and defend deeply held beliefs about something as fundamental as gender. You just get showered in abuse by the keyboard warriors. It's why most people self-edit to silence on social media to stop 1000s yelling at you as if you want gays and transgender people stoned and beheaded.

All sensible conversation and debate is being shut down by these extreme rigid left wing types.

Meanwhile we can't get a strong opposition to the Tories because the likes of Keir Starmer too is walking on eggshells, whilst he's probably thinking too what the fuck can I do with these clowns fixated on their identity whilst theirs bigger issues like the NHS and the economy, housing, transport, education etc, etc? 

Proper odd stuff, but you can't reason with the unreasonable.

Yes Spandau, you are indeed the voice of level-headed, grown up chat. I mean, what are your weekly “look at what these woke idiots are doing” threads if not an attempt for intellectual debate?

It’s telling that myself, SOTV and Squid have all managed discourse at a civil level in this thread. Whereas it’s only been  yourself who has been advocating punching posters and calling them tools.

You’re the real grown up here mate, never let anyone tell you otherwise.
Go to page 2 and look what you said about me? You insult others aggressively and get some grief back but clearly can’t handle a bit of your medicine. 
By the way I’m not advocating punching you, just illustrating your debating style riles people on a great level.
If you wish to get us discussing civilly then let’s get it back on track and face some fundamentals such as it’s not just those over 50 who think stuff like this is barmy? 
Also, I don’t know who you hang around with, but as someone middle ground/left of centre, virtually everyone I know feels the same about cancel culture/wokeness etc.
It’s s pity that many well meaning people are like you focussing on identity and micro issues because if we faced major social issues instead we wouldn’t have the inept/corrupt current Tories so comfy.
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#76
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vAc5JqcBPK8

This may be a bit out-dated for some.

Call yourself what you like, have sex with who you like and stick what ever you like wherever, it makes no difference to me.

There is a thin edge of the wedge scenario already happening. Trans who have become woman appearing in the Olympics under their new gender. This is happening.

Male sexual offenders changing their Gender to female and being put in female prisons. This is happening.

So whilst in everyday life this stuff doesn’t really matter to us there is a bigger picture going on whereby the rights of a tiny, tiny % are being given a greater status than the majority.
Fuck VAR
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#77
Great clip CA! A favourite.
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#78
(11-24-2021, 11:14 PM)CA Baggie Wrote: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vAc5JqcBPK8

This may be a bit out-dated for some.

Call yourself what you like, have sex with who you like and stick what ever you like wherever, it makes no difference to me.

There is a thin edge of the wedge scenario already happening.  Trans who have become woman appearing in the Olympics under their new gender.  This is happening.

Male sexual offenders changing their Gender to female and being put in female prisons.  This is happening.

So whilst in everyday life this stuff doesn’t really matter to us there is a bigger picture going on whereby the rights of a tiny, tiny % are being given a greater status than the majority.

Hadn't remembered that, but that sums up how black and white this argument is.

As John Cleese says at the end about Eric Idle's right to have babies: "Symbolic of his struggle to face reality," which sums up the whole debate.

This erosion of basic common-sense is a drip drip effect. On the day I started this thread the Brits said they won't have best male/female categories anymore as it isn't trans exclusive! Why? So Sam Smith, like me a man over 6ft with a beard, can not feel excluded because in recent years in his mixed up head he doesn't know what gender he is and is drawing attention to himself over it?

Well Sam you may be rich and famous and influential, but you're still able to undo your zip and stand up doing a piss. That makes you a man, also an influential one affecting kids who worship you. You may have minority issues around your sexual desires, but that's fine so go back to being a gay man. You can be a bi-sexual even, but you are 100 per cent a man.

As I've said before change is a process and every day we have little steps like a bloke with a beard in his 50s being asked if he is a Mr or Mrs and the Brits dropping the difference between male and female we are creating a very bizarre society- it's turning into a mad social experiment which, as well as other problems already covered, will see kids jumping on the gender neutral/sex change wagon, just because they are mixed up and encouraged. In an era of the internet algorithms leading them further down this path plus many more untraditional/unstable family set ups, vulnerable kids will make life-changing decisions they will later regret and lead them to lives of misery/suicide as they followed a fad they thought was a good idea at the time. As has been said before by others more well-versed with case studies there's plenty of examples of this.

Sadly though the lunacy continues and you can be sure there's people at the Brits who think exactly the same as me, and probably the huge majority of them, that the thing is crackers, but they daren't say it as a hissing venomous minority will turn on them make them lose their job and do their best to ensure they never get one again.

This is what the  gender debate/ free speech has become and it is day by day inching itself into even crazier territory against the rights of at least 99 per cent of the population and the basic common good of society.
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#79
Why do you need gender specific categories at the Brits.

Does being a different gender give you an advantage in music.
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#80
(11-25-2021, 07:30 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Why do you need gender specific categories at the Brits.

Does being a different gender give you an advantage in music.

No, but being over 6ft like Spandau or Sam Smith might be.
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