Leicester Localised Lockdown

[baggy1]

I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

You think that all of the issues in society and lack of freedom of speech is down to the 'madness in the Labour Party'? You don't think wider society, Brexit, Farage, Tommy Robinson, Trump etc are the problem rather than the result? Interesting viewpoint / opinion - I disagree and if you roll back a few years you will remember the leader of the BNP or whatever they called themselves at the time being on QT and everybody saying 'if you give them the airtime they will shoot themselves in the foot', which he did. They then gave Farage the same treatment, except that he was much more astute and prepared and the rest, as they say, is history.

By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias. That in itself is where you need to look at the problems - Not thinking the Labour party need to sort their act out because they are ruining it for the rest of us. the problem lies with the liars and bigots in power.

[Spandaubaggie]

I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

You think that all of the issues in society and lack of freedom of speech is down to the 'madness in the Labour Party'? You don't think wider society, Brexit, Farage, Tommy Robinson, Trump etc are the problem rather than the result? Interesting viewpoint / opinion - I disagree and if you roll back a few years you will remember the leader of the BNP or whatever they called themselves at the time being on QT and everybody saying 'if you give them the airtime they will shoot themselves in the foot', which he did. They then gave Farage the same treatment, except that he was much more astute and prepared and the rest, as they say, is history.

By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias. That in itself is where you need to look at the problems - Not thinking the Labour party need to sort their act out because they are ruining it for the rest of us. the problem lies with the liars and bigots in power.

It's at both ends. Extreme right and extreme left, but all we are left with is polarised shouting at opposite ends. Far right scum, who are proper racists and far left nutters alike.
Fact is, and there's no hiding that debate has been closed down and the post above this shows.
We know there's white trash and black trash and Asian trash and equally good in all of these races, but we can't mention the Asian idiocy in Leicester  as it is seen as 'racist'.
I recall one of the child sex abuse grooming scandals the report saying prosecutions were prevented due to PC madness, because we can't say the fact that it was Pakistanis involved.
I voted Labour and to stay in the EU, but I can see the madness, which means the silent majority get angrier as every day the BBC run some weak tale like about Alexandra Burke saying she was racially abused growing up, and see that warrants a headline. All of us were probably abused in some way by other ignorant people. That's part of life. 
We have to start dealing with the real issues rather than blow tiny things out of proportion, because until we do society is on a dangerous path.

[baggy1]

I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

You think that all of the issues in society and lack of freedom of speech is down to the 'madness in the Labour Party'? You don't think wider society, Brexit, Farage, Tommy Robinson, Trump etc are the problem rather than the result? Interesting viewpoint / opinion - I disagree and if you roll back a few years you will remember the leader of the BNP or whatever they called themselves at the time being on QT and everybody saying 'if you give them the airtime they will shoot themselves in the foot', which he did. They then gave Farage the same treatment, except that he was much more astute and prepared and the rest, as they say, is history.

By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias. That in itself is where you need to look at the problems - Not thinking the Labour party need to sort their act out because they are ruining it for the rest of us. the problem lies with the liars and bigots in power.

It's at both ends. Extreme right and extreme left, but all we are left with is polarised shouting at opposite ends. Far right scum, who are proper racists and far left nutters alike.
Fact is, and there's no hiding that debate has been closed down and the post above this shows.
We know there's white trash and black trash and Asian trash and equally good in all of these races, but we can't mention the Asian idiocy in Leicester  as it is seen as 'racist'.
I recall one of the child sex abuse grooming scandals the report saying prosecutions were prevented due to PC madness, because we can't say the fact that it was Pakistanis involved.
I voted Labour and to stay in the EU, but I can see the madness, which means the silent majority get angrier as every day the BBC run some weak tale like about Alexandra Burke saying she was racially abused growing up, and see that warrants a headline. All of us were probably abused in some way by other ignorant people. That's part of life. 
We have to start dealing with the real issues rather than blow tiny things out of proportion, because until we do society is on a dangerous path.

Or alternatively we could deal with the issues we seem to want to brush under the carpet, such as racism, and then we can move onto the 'real issues' whatever they are. 

Shabs has put it perfectly in his post about the narrative around the Bournemouth beaches and the Leicester 'spike'. Where have you been told you can't talk about the Leicester incident because it's racist? I always try and put some figures around the story where I can, it would be interesting to know how big this actual spike is and how that compares with other areas before I start talking about multi generational, handshaking worshippers.

I'm still no wiser why you want the Labour party to sort out their mess.

[Borin' Baggie]

If I'm reading this right you're implying that 10 years ago, saying something that was blatantly homophobic in public with no backlash was a good thing because of freedom of speech? Either that or the level of education on this issue is much higher now than 10 years ago that people know gay parents either adopt, use donors or have surrogates and that's not even mentioning nothing about parental upbringing or birth nowadays is "natural". Social attitudes change, 40 years ago it was not socially acceptable to be gay and socially acceptable to say that gay people were mentally ill and 60 years ago being gay meant you could be chemically castrated even if you were a war hero. Not sure why someone would be called fascist for that nowadays, homophobic yes but the only people I can imagine complain about being called fascist for that hold other views that are much more extreme such as they overlap with the regimentation of society within fascism such as thinking gay people are an underclass who don't deserve the same rights or something. The reason nobody discusses that anymore is because it either outs the person saying that as a bigot or as a massive idiot.

Regarding freedom of speech, your position is a fallacy. By politically encouraging the views of some via protections you're suppressing the freedom of speech of those who disagree with it which can open up a big can of worms. This is why the only policing of freedom of speech is in relation to the state (ECtHR and the US constitution for example) as if you try and police private individuals no matter what way you try to balance things you're infringing on people's rights to free speech.

On this particular topic, I've seen nobody afraid of asserting that religious or ethnicity might affect the attitude to the response to the lockdown as I've seen it discussed plenty. What I've not seen is people calling out older people for being more likely to break lockdown than younger people or the reasons why working class older men are also considered a high risk group. The issue to me is that people like complaining instead of doing things or ignoring other factors such as in this particular area of Leicester where cases have spiked likely having a distrust of authority due to the actions of the government and local councils against them over the last 30 years, with nobody accounting for that potentially being a reason why they're ignoring advice as it's not been corroborated by other parts of the country with a similar ethnic makeup but a different reaction.

No. You illustrate the point I made perfectly.
I firstly gave this as an example rather than saying it’s my opinion. It isn’t. I’m totally fine with gay parenting and I would certainly have taken the latter point in this argument.
However, I would try to see other points of view. Is it seen as strange? Yes. It hadn’t happened before on a widespread scale as it was unnatural. That word meaning not part of nature. However, even the word unnatural is loaded at this time.
So dare we mention the behaviour of other ethnic groups with people like you about? Not likely. People like you are the reason for Trump and Brexit.
I’m liberal, but realise some people are conservative and slow to accept change. The fact is the extreme left wing is extremely intolerant and totally lacking perspective. For instance someone last week said he being Asian and asked if he could drink was micro racism. It was a comment on a BBC story!
I shook my head as this perfectly demonstrates acute hypersensitivity.
People can’t find the words now to try to reason anything because of such nonsense. Their voices have been silenced and it’s stoked up something more sinister as is clear.
The world isn’t perfect, some people are slower than others to accept change but alienating them is having a much more destructive path and your argument brilliantly shows that. 
I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

I didn't say it was your opinion on gay parenting, I deliberately made an effort to avoid implying it was because I don't think it is. The only thing I attributed to you was you thinking that saying something that is textbook homophobia (basing parental ability on sexuality) is an OK view to air because of free speech despite it being outright stupid with no merit behind whatsoever. 10 years ago I might have bothered to challenge that view as society was less accepting of gay people and gay couple adoption was only brought in in 2002 so a lot more people would have been ignorant to the facts but nowadays I'm not going to bother as that issue has been settled and the only people who disagree with it tend to be either too bigoted to change their view or don't care enough to listen to things outside their worldview to change their opinion on it.

As for "people like me", first I am not left wing in the slightest. I have never voted Labour, I voted Green in the last European elections and that was that and I have voted Conservative at local level before, most recently in 2016. My opinion on markets and liberties would put me at odds with every single socialist movement that has ever been spawned. Secondly, unless I believe the opinion to be utterly stupid (anti-vax, flat earth, fake moon landings, gay people aren't fit to be parents) I will try to see the other side and base my response on that hence my third paragraph pointing out that there is a level of mistrust in authority in that part of Leicester due to previous friction between the authorities and the people there which would act as a barrier and would be unique to that situation and me bringing up the fact that a subset of the majority ethnic group in this country are considered at high risk because of their own attitudes which would imply there is a wider societal issue at play and attributing that to ethnicities is pointless and counter productive. It's like the grooming gangs stuff; people on one side were tarring everyone who's of a certain ethnicity as being at fault and blaming PC culture as hindering the police, people on the other side were reacting to being called child rapists when they weren't, some people were too scared to side with either one lest they get mixed in with the first group and I'm trying to point out that the people involved with grooming kids were involved with higher ups in the police and local authorities hence those in charge had a stake to cover it up. A couple weeks back China was using anecdotal evidence of the behaviour of people in Alum Rock compared with other parts of Birmingham as a reason for ethnic minorities being adversely affected and I corrected him by pointing out that the most disproportionately affected ethnic groups (British Indians and British Bangladeshis) were not living in the area he was talking about so there's a huge hole in his logic.

As an aside, I'm the kind of person who is more than happy to see the likes of Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin go on television to be challenged as more often than not they come out of it with egg on their faces as happened with those two. I find you lumping me in with those involved in cancel culture a bit bizarre.

[Spandaubaggie]

I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

You think that all of the issues in society and lack of freedom of speech is down to the 'madness in the Labour Party'? You don't think wider society, Brexit, Farage, Tommy Robinson, Trump etc are the problem rather than the result? Interesting viewpoint / opinion - I disagree and if you roll back a few years you will remember the leader of the BNP or whatever they called themselves at the time being on QT and everybody saying 'if you give them the airtime they will shoot themselves in the foot', which he did. They then gave Farage the same treatment, except that he was much more astute and prepared and the rest, as they say, is history.

By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias. That in itself is where you need to look at the problems - Not thinking the Labour party need to sort their act out because they are ruining it for the rest of us. the problem lies with the liars and bigots in power.

It's at both ends. Extreme right and extreme left, but all we are left with is polarised shouting at opposite ends. Far right scum, who are proper racists and far left nutters alike.
Fact is, and there's no hiding that debate has been closed down and the post above this shows.
We know there's white trash and black trash and Asian trash and equally good in all of these races, but we can't mention the Asian idiocy in Leicester  as it is seen as 'racist'.
I recall one of the child sex abuse grooming scandals the report saying prosecutions were prevented due to PC madness, because we can't say the fact that it was Pakistanis involved.
I voted Labour and to stay in the EU, but I can see the madness, which means the silent majority get angrier as every day the BBC run some weak tale like about Alexandra Burke saying she was racially abused growing up, and see that warrants a headline. All of us were probably abused in some way by other ignorant people. That's part of life. 
We have to start dealing with the real issues rather than blow tiny things out of proportion, because until we do society is on a dangerous path.

Or alternatively we could deal with the issues we seem to want to brush under the carpet, such as racism, and then we can move onto the 'real issues' whatever they are. 

Shabs has put it perfectly in his post about the narrative around the Bournemouth beaches and the Leicester 'spike'. Where have you been told you can't talk about the Leicester incident because it's racist? I always try and put some figures around the story where I can, it would be interesting to know how big this actual spike is and how that compares with other areas before I start talking about multi generational, handshaking worshippers.

I'm still no wiser why you want the Labour party to sort out their mess.

We need strong opposition and until Labour get more central we have none. Starmer has made a good start.
Trouble is the hyper analysis of stories which in the news of old, a few years back, would be considered weak is bonkers. For instance, we start highlighting mild insults as being news worthy and the term racism is a catch all phrase which pigeon holes people so strongly, when the person may not be racist, but just made a joke out of someone's differences or used their difference to pin onto an insult. Overweight guy is a fat bastard, red haired guy a ginger bastard, but call someone a black bastard and it's a different game.
To me racism in its real place is beating someone up or denying them a job based on their ethnicity, with a built up hatred of that ethnic group. I also believe we have made giant strides in this country in the past couple of generations, but many of those jumping on the Black Lives Matter band wagon has made it seem like no advancements have been made. 
Fact is a black lad brought up in a loving family will do better in life than some white kid whose mum is an alcoholic and dad in jail.
Equally, the black woman who has kids off some missing father isn't going to have the right environment for her kids to do well, and it is little wonder when so many kids from that background go off the rails.
Debate now though seems to miss some of the commonsense fundamentals.

[Shabby Russian]

For those who may be interested the outbreak in Leicester seems to be more widespread in the east of the city and amongst young people of working age.

[Pipkins]

The trouble is the media & M.P's wont say how it is

Instead its always another excuse why its gone up in within certain communities

On BBC News one person said many wont seek help because of fear of racism from health officials

The problem is hypersensitivity due to political correctness closing all debate.
For instance 10 years ago someone could say they think gays having children is unnatural and someone could respond with an argument saying gays can make good parents, better than kids being brought up in dysfunctional chaotic homes.
Now if someone said they thought gay parenting wrong they just get labelled as fascists. End of discussion.
It means only in the voting booth do the conservative suppressed take their revenge. 
Freedom of speech is finished until we start debating difference again rather than this polarised madness.
I find it so frustrating as someone quite centrist politically.
It’s not just a UK thing either.

I agree
That's the worrying issue
That's how brexit started (dont want arguments who's right & wrong !)
But M.Ps etc labelled everyone racist bigot etc for discussing it
What happened ?
Joe Public so pissed off in booths they voted in favour of leaving
The remain campaign were so confident we would stay
Even the leave camp were shocked too

Now fast forward a few years
Debate stopped for fear of being labelled x,y z
Police terrified of searching or arresting a non white person for fear of being accused etc

Up comes a Donald Trump type
Public vote him in office

All completely avoidable

[Spandaubaggie]

If I'm reading this right you're implying that 10 years ago, saying something that was blatantly homophobic in public with no backlash was a good thing because of freedom of speech? Either that or the level of education on this issue is much higher now than 10 years ago that people know gay parents either adopt, use donors or have surrogates and that's not even mentioning nothing about parental upbringing or birth nowadays is "natural". Social attitudes change, 40 years ago it was not socially acceptable to be gay and socially acceptable to say that gay people were mentally ill and 60 years ago being gay meant you could be chemically castrated even if you were a war hero. Not sure why someone would be called fascist for that nowadays, homophobic yes but the only people I can imagine complain about being called fascist for that hold other views that are much more extreme such as they overlap with the regimentation of society within fascism such as thinking gay people are an underclass who don't deserve the same rights or something. The reason nobody discusses that anymore is because it either outs the person saying that as a bigot or as a massive idiot.

Regarding freedom of speech, your position is a fallacy. By politically encouraging the views of some via protections you're suppressing the freedom of speech of those who disagree with it which can open up a big can of worms. This is why the only policing of freedom of speech is in relation to the state (ECtHR and the US constitution for example) as if you try and police private individuals no matter what way you try to balance things you're infringing on people's rights to free speech.

On this particular topic, I've seen nobody afraid of asserting that religious or ethnicity might affect the attitude to the response to the lockdown as I've seen it discussed plenty. What I've not seen is people calling out older people for being more likely to break lockdown than younger people or the reasons why working class older men are also considered a high risk group. The issue to me is that people like complaining instead of doing things or ignoring other factors such as in this particular area of Leicester where cases have spiked likely having a distrust of authority due to the actions of the government and local councils against them over the last 30 years, with nobody accounting for that potentially being a reason why they're ignoring advice as it's not been corroborated by other parts of the country with a similar ethnic makeup but a different reaction.

No. You illustrate the point I made perfectly.
I firstly gave this as an example rather than saying it’s my opinion. It isn’t. I’m totally fine with gay parenting and I would certainly have taken the latter point in this argument.
However, I would try to see other points of view. Is it seen as strange? Yes. It hadn’t happened before on a widespread scale as it was unnatural. That word meaning not part of nature. However, even the word unnatural is loaded at this time.
So dare we mention the behaviour of other ethnic groups with people like you about? Not likely. People like you are the reason for Trump and Brexit.
I’m liberal, but realise some people are conservative and slow to accept change. The fact is the extreme left wing is extremely intolerant and totally lacking perspective. For instance someone last week said he being Asian and asked if he could drink was micro racism. It was a comment on a BBC story!
I shook my head as this perfectly demonstrates acute hypersensitivity.
People can’t find the words now to try to reason anything because of such nonsense. Their voices have been silenced and it’s stoked up something more sinister as is clear.
The world isn’t perfect, some people are slower than others to accept change but alienating them is having a much more destructive path and your argument brilliantly shows that. 
I hope Kier Starmer can help change the madness in the Labour Party because you will have more real fascism and racism otherwise.

I didn't say it was your opinion on gay parenting, I deliberately made an effort to avoid implying it was because I don't think it is. The only thing I attributed to you was you thinking that saying something that is textbook homophobia (basing parental ability on sexuality) is an OK view to air because of free speech despite it being outright stupid with no merit behind whatsoever. 10 years ago I might have bothered to challenge that view as society was less accepting of gay people and gay couple adoption was only brought in in 2002 so a lot more people would have been ignorant to the facts but nowadays I'm not going to bother as that issue has been settled and the only people who disagree with it tend to be either too bigoted to change their view or don't care enough to listen to things outside their worldview to change their opinion on it.

As for "people like me", first I am not left wing in the slightest. I have never voted Labour, I voted Green in the last European elections and that was that and I have voted Conservative at local level before, most recently in 2016. My opinion on markets and liberties would put me at odds with every single socialist movement that has ever been spawned. Secondly, unless I believe the opinion to be utterly stupid (anti-vax, flat earth, fake moon landings, gay people aren't fit to be parents) I will try to see the other side and base my response on that hence my third paragraph pointing out that there is a level of mistrust in authority in that part of Leicester due to previous friction between the authorities and the people there which would act as a barrier and would be unique to that situation and me bringing up the fact that a subset of the majority ethnic group in this country are considered at high risk because of their own attitudes which would imply there is a wider societal issue at play and attributing that to ethnicities is pointless and counter productive. It's like the grooming gangs stuff; people on one side were tarring everyone who's of a certain ethnicity as being at fault and blaming PC culture as hindering the police, people on the other side were reacting to being called child rapists when they weren't, some people were too scared to side with either one lest they get mixed in with the first group and I'm trying to point out that the people involved with grooming kids were involved with higher ups in the police and local authorities hence those in charge had a stake to cover it up. A couple weeks back China was using anecdotal evidence of the behaviour of people in Alum Rock compared with other parts of Birmingham as a reason for ethnic minorities being adversely affected and I corrected him by pointing out that the most disproportionately affected ethnic groups (British Indians and British Bangladeshis) were not living in the area he was talking about so there's a huge hole in his logic.

As an aside, I'm the kind of person who is more than happy to see the likes of Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin go on television to be challenged as more often than not they come out of it with egg on their faces as happened with those two. I find you lumping me in with those involved in cancel culture a bit bizarre.

OK Borin, perhaps I read it wrong that you had labelled me and sorry about that.
The issue is simply that relatively articulate people like us can use boards like this to debate, but many aren't capable of this or utterly frustrated by the lack of what they see as freedom of speech.
However, words like racist, homophobic etc are powerful and have a million shades of grey.
For instance can it be possible not to agree with gay parenting and not be homophobic?  I would say it is. It doesn't mean you hate gays, but just don't agree that two men raising a child off a surrogate mother is great for the kid and its identity.
It gets difficult debating stuff these days as some many want to leap into a rage and give a negative label to people who feel society has moved too quickly for their views to catch up. It doesn't make them evil. They are frustrated and then show it in the polling station.

[baggy1]

For instance can it be possible not to agree with gay parenting and not be homophobic?  I would say it is. It doesn't mean you hate gays, but just don't agree that two men raising a child off a surrogate mother is great for the kid and its identity.

Ok, lets take this as an example and expand it, in a reasonable debate manner.

What would you feel the difference is between and male-female couple raising a child from a surrogate mother and a male-male couple?

It appears that it is because you feel the kid and it's identity is not going to be as well off in the mm scenario as opposed to the mf situation. Now, and this is a conclusion that I have assumed from your point, that you feel that having two Dad's will encourage the child to think of that as 'normal' which, again I am assuming, you feel isn't normal. 

Now from that I can assume that you don't consider two men together as normal which is homophobic. Because without knowing any facts in the two Dad scenario apart from them being two men you feel it is wrong, or more to the point different to you.

[JOK]

For those who may be interested the outbreak in Leicester seems to be more widespread in the east of the city and amongst young people of working age.

Can be right!