(11-09-2021, 06:01 PM)Cheshire East Baggie Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 05:26 PM)cornishbaggie Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 03:19 PM)Cheshire East Baggie Wrote: As this has turned into a full-on Brexit debate, here's my tuppence worth.

One thing no-one can hide from is the Irish issue. We don't want to be part of the EU any more, so there has to be an enhanced border somewhere. We don't want to reimpose one between Ulster and Eire, for reasons of simple common sense and convenience as well as the fragile peace process. But there is deep-seated opposition to any increased border controls between Great Britain and Ulster, again for trade and political/historic reasons.

The only three ways in which this could be resolved were:

1 - An absolutely free trade agreement between UK and EU, whereby no additional checks were demanded or required by either side. We were told this could "easily" be achieved because it wouldn't be in EU's interests to refuse. But did anyone really believe that line?

2 - Re-Unification of Ireland, UK relinquishes any rights over Ulster. Not going to happen.

3 - UK retakes Ireland and incorporates it into UK. Even less likely.

This was flagged up by Remain and dismissed by the Leave campaign as part of "Project Fear". But here we are, Article 16 about to be invoked. It's going to get very nasty. Suspension of the entire trade deal would fuck us over very badly. No-one from Leave said our intention was to not trade with EU any more, it was always said that everything could carry on as normal. Not seeing that from where I sit.

If anyone wants to understand " the Irish issue " it might be helpful if they understood a third of Ulster is in the Republic.

So my woeful lack of geographical knowledge is the issue here, not the valid point I made about the resolution of the "Irish Brexit issue"? Thanks for clearing that up.

(11-09-2021, 11:40 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Except that the NHS has had far more than £350m a week and Remainers have seen the Tories replicate an EU-style big state social democracy in the UK.

You people are never happy.

(11-09-2021, 03:16 PM)Sotv Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 03:03 PM)baggy1 Wrote: So everything is ok then and this is as good as it gets - yay, feel much better now. Surely the only one's in the 'ostrich position' are those that don't see any problems since we left. The remainers aren't burying their heads and not seeing all the benefits that we have gained, or are there some other gains apart from taking away the EU excuse from the politicians that you will vote for no matter what.

whatever benefits may be pointed out will be denied by the remain side, its been like this ever since they lost. 

For one, i'm pleased we no longer subscribe to a racist immigration policy that prioritised white Europeans over Asian or African people. 

The lowest paid in society are now looking at wage increases as the source for cheap east European labour dries up. Dunno about you but i'm quite happy to pay a few extra pence on a bottle of wine etc in order to ensure better wages for those on low pay. 

By your own admission we are no worse off so i really don't get why leaving still remains an issue for you unless it has to do with your identity.

(11-09-2021, 04:57 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 09:46 AM)baggy1 Wrote: So what you are saying is that leaving the EU made no difference, glad we spent all that time and money on it when we needed it elsewhere as you have highlighted.

No what I’m saying is, all the things the board’s extreme, vitriol spouting, pessimist-in-chief continually spews as proof that being out of the E.U. is evidence that leaving was wrong, are in fact ridiculous. Whilst inventing inflammatory policies and quotes (“Told to go back to their own country”) is, I believe, designed to increase division and an exaggerated impression of racism.

I will continue to call out this blaming of every poor state of affairs on Brexit or one specific political party, and in isolation from the rest of the world, for the blinkered ideology it is.
I will not be bounced into judging differences, benefits or detriments after just 10 months.

Glad you concur that all the examples I cited have nothing to do with Brexit.

(11-10-2021, 09:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 04:57 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 09:46 AM)baggy1 Wrote: So what you are saying is that leaving the EU made no difference, glad we spent all that time and money on it when we needed it elsewhere as you have highlighted.

No what I’m saying is, all the things the board’s extreme, vitriol spouting, pessimist-in-chief continually spews as proof that being out of the E.U. is evidence that leaving was wrong, are in fact ridiculous. Whilst inventing inflammatory policies and quotes (“Told to go back to their own country”) is, I believe, designed to increase division and an exaggerated impression of racism.

I will continue to call out this blaming of every poor state of affairs on Brexit or one specific political party, and in isolation from the rest of the world, for the blinkered ideology it is.
I will not be bounced into judging differences, benefits or detriments after just 10 months.

Glad you concur that all the examples I cited have nothing to do with Brexit.

Here you go… 

‘We’ was not a term I used for the government but the countries decision as a result of the referendum. The anti-immigration rhetoric was clear from some sections of the Vote Leave campaign. To argue otherwise is an obtuse position to take. The problem is untangling Vote Leave from the current government, it’s extremely difficult. It is both a strength and weakness for this government. 

Whilst it was the right thing to do to help those who wanted to stay, the new system of only been welcome to work and live here is based on arbitrary monetary value placed on someone’s skills. This is hardly an open and welcoming policy. 

Anecdotally people I know from the EU love the U.K. but have felt unwelcome, and singled out more so during and since the referendum. Many left at the end of the transition period and haven’t returned which is disappointing but understandable. 

As has been said many times in reply to your points about global problems, no one as far as I have seen has argued this isn’t the case. What they have argued is that Brexit will exasperate problems. To argue the loss of workers in agriculture, butchery, healthcare, social care, transport, and other sectors is helpful at this difficult time is again a obtuse position to take. 

Let’s be honest you hardly ever criticise this government so you could argue your opinions are no less biased than mine, given their current record. How do you think the government is performing, behaving? 

You aren’t performing a public duty arguing with me you’re just offering a different opinion.

(11-10-2021, 10:29 AM)strawman Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 09:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 04:57 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 09:46 AM)baggy1 Wrote: So what you are saying is that leaving the EU made no difference, glad we spent all that time and money on it when we needed it elsewhere as you have highlighted.

No what I’m saying is, all the things the board’s extreme, vitriol spouting, pessimist-in-chief continually spews as proof that being out of the E.U. is evidence that leaving was wrong, are in fact ridiculous. Whilst inventing inflammatory policies and quotes (“Told to go back to their own country”) is, I believe, designed to increase division and an exaggerated impression of racism.

I will continue to call out this blaming of every poor state of affairs on Brexit or one specific political party, and in isolation from the rest of the world, for the blinkered ideology it is.
I will not be bounced into judging differences, benefits or detriments after just 10 months.

Glad you concur that all the examples I cited have nothing to do with Brexit.

Here you go… 

‘We’ was not a term I used for the government but the countries decision as a result of the referendum. The anti-immigration rhetoric was clear from some sections of the Vote Leave campaign. To argue otherwise is an obtuse position to take. The problem is untangling Vote Leave from the current government, it’s extremely difficult. It is both a strength and weakness for this government. 

Whilst it was the right thing to do to help those who wanted to stay, the new system of only been welcome to work and live here is based on arbitrary monetary value placed on someone’s skills. This is hardly an open and welcoming policy. 

Anecdotally people I know from the EU love the U.K. but have felt unwelcome, and singled out more so during and since the referendum. Many left at the end of the transition period and haven’t returned which is disappointing but understandable. 

As has been said many times in reply to your points about global problems, no one as far as I have seen has argued this isn’t the case. What they have argued is that Brexit will exasperate problems. To argue the loss of workers in agriculture, butchery, healthcare, social care, transport, and other sectors is helpful at this difficult time is again a obtuse position to take. 

Let’s be honest you hardly ever criticise this government so you could argue your opinions are no less biased than mine, given their current record. How do you think the government is performing, behaving? 

You aren’t performing a public duty arguing with me you’re just offering a different opinion.

Do you mean something like this

'The European Union Member States implementing the EU Blue Card Directive have published the new minimum salaries required from EU employers to pay to third-country citizens they wish to hire.'

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/member-states-increase-eu-blue-card-salary-minimums/

(11-10-2021, 12:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: So we stop freedom of movement for 26 neighbouring countries with diverse populations coming to live and work in the UK as well as setting up our own monetary (skills) barriers to live and work here from everywhere in the world.

(11-10-2021, 01:12 PM)strawman Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 12:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: So we stop freedom of movement for 26 neighbouring countries with diverse populations coming to live and work in the UK as well as setting up our own monetary (skills) barriers to live and work here from everywhere in the world.

We give equality of entry based not on which passport you have, not on which country you come from, not on what colour you are or what religion you are but based on skills. This is exactly the same as the immigration rules for EU third countries.

We are no longer a member of the EU, they are now a third party as far as the UK is concerned as is each of their countries yet you are quite prepared to sacrifice equality and discriminate on the altar of economic simplicity. That makes you an extended border racist and xenophobe in my eyes and any attempt to justify your discrimination is mute.

If you want to think about the UK as a club and the EU as a club then the  truth is that the rules for immigration are very similar. The EU also is no saint. Its countries have built more fences than Trump. It harbours openly racist countries like Hungary. It forcibly returns asylum seekers and pays countries and African chiefs to keep them in camps.  Its commission is the epitome of white middle class and its parliament is under represented for minorities.

If the UK is racist and xenophobic, then the EU is just an extended border edition of the same thing.

I don't claim the UK is any better or worse unlike you  blabbering on incessantly about how bad we are compared to the EU. I appreciate that you are heartbroken that you can’t get cheap labour  anymore to make your negative little life exactly as you want it. You are like some pathetic teenager that harbours a love for something that  never  returned the emotion and in reality wasn’t the thing you thought it was anyway.

(11-10-2021, 01:12 PM)strawman Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 12:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: So we stop freedom of movement for 26 neighbouring countries with diverse populations coming to live and work in the UK as well as setting up our own monetary (skills) barriers to live and work here from everywhere in the world.

We give equality of entry based not on which passport you have, not on which country you come from, not on what colour you are or what religion you are but based on skills. This is exactly the same as the immigration rules for EU third countries.

We are no longer a member of the EU, they are now a third party as far as the UK is concerned as is each of their countries yet you are quite prepared to sacrifice equality and discriminate on the altar of economic simplicity. That makes you an extended border racist and xenophobe in my eyes and any attempt to justify your discrimination is mute.

If you want to think about the UK as a club and the EU as a club then the  truth is that the rules for immigration are very similar. The EU also is no saint. Its countries have built more fences than Trump. It harbours openly racist countries like Hungary. It forcibly returns asylum seekers and pays countries and African chiefs to keep them in camps.  Its commission is the epitome of white middle class and its parliament is under represented for minorities.

If the UK is racist and xenophobic, then the EU is just an extended border edition of the same thing.

I don't claim the UK is any better or worse unlike you  blabbering on incessantly about how bad we are compared to the EU. I appreciate that you are heartbroken that you can’t get cheap labour  anymore to make your negative little life exactly as you want it. You are like some pathetic teenager that harbours a love for something that  never  returned the emotion and in reality wasn’t the thing you thought it was anyway.

(11-10-2021, 12:31 PM)Protheroe Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 10:29 AM)strawman Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 09:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 04:57 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-09-2021, 09:46 AM)baggy1 Wrote: So what you are saying is that leaving the EU made no difference, glad we spent all that time and money on it when we needed it elsewhere as you have highlighted.

No what I’m saying is, all the things the board’s extreme, vitriol spouting, pessimist-in-chief continually spews as proof that being out of the E.U. is evidence that leaving was wrong, are in fact ridiculous. Whilst inventing inflammatory policies and quotes (“Told to go back to their own country”) is, I believe, designed to increase division and an exaggerated impression of racism.

I will continue to call out this blaming of every poor state of affairs on Brexit or one specific political party, and in isolation from the rest of the world, for the blinkered ideology it is.
I will not be bounced into judging differences, benefits or detriments after just 10 months.

Glad you concur that all the examples I cited have nothing to do with Brexit.

Here you go… 

‘We’ was not a term I used for the government but the countries decision as a result of the referendum. The anti-immigration rhetoric was clear from some sections of the Vote Leave campaign. To argue otherwise is an obtuse position to take. The problem is untangling Vote Leave from the current government, it’s extremely difficult. It is both a strength and weakness for this government. 

Whilst it was the right thing to do to help those who wanted to stay, the new system of only been welcome to work and live here is based on arbitrary monetary value placed on someone’s skills. This is hardly an open and welcoming policy. 

Anecdotally people I know from the EU love the U.K. but have felt unwelcome, and singled out more so during and since the referendum. Many left at the end of the transition period and haven’t returned which is disappointing but understandable. 

As has been said many times in reply to your points about global problems, no one as far as I have seen has argued this isn’t the case. What they have argued is that Brexit will exasperate problems. To argue the loss of workers in agriculture, butchery, healthcare, social care, transport, and other sectors is helpful at this difficult time is again a obtuse position to take. 

Let’s be honest you hardly ever criticise this government so you could argue your opinions are no less biased than mine, given their current record. How do you think the government is performing, behaving? 

You aren’t performing a public duty arguing with me you’re just offering a different opinion.

Do you mean something like this

'The European Union Member States implementing the EU Blue Card Directive have published the new minimum salaries required from EU employers to pay to third-country citizens they wish to hire.'

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/member-states-increase-eu-blue-card-salary-minimums/

I pointed this out to the Lib Dem member of a BBC Debate Panel in 2016 and suggested the Blue Card Directive was exceptionally racist compared to the FoM available to EU citizens. Her face was a picture. one of my best grenades.