(11-10-2021, 04:32 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 09:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: ‘We’ was not a term I used for the government but the countries decision as a result of the referendum. The anti-immigration rhetoric was clear from some sections of the Vote Leave campaign. To argue otherwise is an obtuse position to take. The problem is untangling Vote Leave from the current government, it’s extremely difficult. It is both a strength and weakness for this government. 

Whilst it was the right thing to do to help those who wanted to stay, the new system of only been welcome to work and live here is based on arbitrary monetary value placed on someone’s skills. This is hardly an open and welcoming policy. 

Anecdotally people I know from the EU love the U.K. but have felt unwelcome, and singled out more so during and since the referendum. Many left at the end of the transition period and haven’t returned which is disappointing but understandable. 

As has been said many times in reply to your points about global problems, no one as far as I have seen has argued this isn’t the case. What they have argued is that Brexit will exasperate problems. To argue the loss of workers in agriculture, butchery, healthcare, social care, transport, and other sectors is helpful at this difficult time is again a obtuse position to take. 

Let’s be honest you hardly ever criticise this government so you could argue your opinions are no less biased than mine, given their current record. How do you think the government is performing, behaving? 

You aren’t performing a public duty arguing with me you’re just offering a different opinion.

I am not arguing with you, I am highlighting your inaccuracies and deliberate, false inferences. Again, you equate this, or try to as a deflection, with blind support for the government which is not so. As I have pointed out before, I hardly criticise any party, and if I mention Labour, it is to emphasise your hypocrisy by pointing out their doings, historically, have been no better at times.
Pointing out facts is not “my opinion”. Are other states official inflation rates “My opinion”? Is the fact that the ECB injected $2.8 trillion of newly printed money into the eurozone economy, “My opinion”? Is the fact government agencies pumped tens of millions of pounds into encouraging E.U. citizens into applying for resident status “My opinion”? Is it “My Opinion” that it is an accepted fact that most E.U. member states have worker shortages? Calling out your inflammatory hyperbole on food banks by referencing the Trussell Trust's own statement is not “My Opinion”.
 
Taking you some time, is it, to find the references to foreigners being “told to go back to their own country”? Anecdotally I am not aware of anyone (the Royal we, if you like) that told anybody to “Go Home” Have you not read the news lately about how welcoming the E.U. is being to ‘ refugees’ on it’s eastern borders? Probably yes but choose to ignore it.
So, you think it wrong to want immigrants who can offer skills which would benefit our economy?
 
I think your phrase “Inflation is inevitable” in your post, again attacking leave voters, suggests you are blaming the U.K.s inflation rate on Brexit. You have certainly, on numerous occasions, inferred that the ‘global problems’ only exist in the U.K and are directly the result of Brexit and to deny that is bizarre.
 
What is an obtuse position to take, is wanting to denude other states’ workforces to, slightly, improve ours.
Again, I’ll ask you the questions:

1, Are you happy to take workers from Poland, Rumania et al, countries which are also suffering shortages of the type workers we need, simply to improve your lot?

2, If ‘Freedom of Movement’ is the answer to our worker shortages, why are most the states in the E.U. suffering the same problem?

(11-10-2021, 07:24 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Therefore it's irrelevant and a distraction.

(11-11-2021, 10:28 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: We live in a global economy so why would we hobble ‘global Britain’ by limiting people’s freedoms to work where they wish?

(11-11-2021, 02:15 PM)Protheroe Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 07:24 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Therefore it's irrelevant and a distraction.

It's not irrelevant comparing EU (Schengen) third country immigration policy with prospective UK third country immigration policy when we're all being told we're racist and they're. It's highly relevant. Do me a favour BB.

(11-11-2021, 03:00 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote:

(11-11-2021, 02:15 PM)Protheroe Wrote:

(11-10-2021, 07:24 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Therefore it's irrelevant and a distraction.

It's not irrelevant comparing EU (Schengen) third country immigration policy with prospective UK third country immigration policy when we're all being told we're racist and they're. It's highly relevant. Do me a favour BB.

Give over, it's irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the UK whatsoever as we are not party to it in any way. It does not and did not at the time dictate our immigration rules.

(11-11-2021, 10:28 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: No you are arguing with me. Your ‘facts’ can be questioned and a counter argument for them can be put forward, which is all you are doing whenever I post, regardless of the credentials of those who I link to, including on most occasions experts in their field. This is a general point rather than specific to your reply. 

Specific to your point, you’re using the same argument over and over again that other countries are suffering global problems. We know this, we have acknowledged this, so you’re making moot points. The point has always been you are stubbornly trying to argue that the problems Brexit has brought will not exasperate global difficulties here in the U.K. 

We (the country) thanks to the referendum told thousands of potential hard working, talented and upstanding people from across Europe that they aren’t needed or welcome unless they can earn over circa £30k. Whilst spending a few million telling those who had already made a home here, contributed to the U.K. socially and economically and in many cases married or have families with U.K. nationals that they could stay. That was big of us! 

Freedom of movement is a lot more helpful to help the U.K. with a shortage of workers than stopping freedom of movement. If someone from Romania or Poland want to work in the U.K. and contribute to both countries economically (which most do) then that’s up to them. We live in a global economy so why would we hobble ‘global Britain’ by limiting people’s freedoms to work where they wish? 

I don’t think this country is best served by this government. I will carry on pointing out the catalogue of reasons why. Others are free to argue to the contrary. You are on a politics board, it’s going to party political and if you’re just going to pick fault with other people’s opinions whilst trying to stay aloof from offering your own then fine, a bit odd and weakens your position but ok all the same.

(11-11-2021, 09:41 PM)JOK Wrote:

(11-11-2021, 10:28 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: No you are arguing with me. Your ‘facts’ can be questioned and a counter argument for them can be put forward, which is all you are doing whenever I post, regardless of the credentials of those who I link to, including on most occasions experts in their field. This is a general point rather than specific to your reply. 

Specific to your point, you’re using the same argument over and over again that other countries are suffering global problems. We know this, we have acknowledged this, so you’re making moot points. The point has always been you are stubbornly trying to argue that the problems Brexit has brought will not exasperate global difficulties here in the U.K. 

We (the country) thanks to the referendum told thousands of potential hard working, talented and upstanding people from across Europe that they aren’t needed or welcome unless they can earn over circa £30k. Whilst spending a few million telling those who had already made a home here, contributed to the U.K. socially and economically and in many cases married or have families with U.K. nationals that they could stay. That was big of us! 

Freedom of movement is a lot more helpful to help the U.K. with a shortage of workers than stopping freedom of movement. If someone from Romania or Poland want to work in the U.K. and contribute to both countries economically (which most do) then that’s up to them. We live in a global economy so why would we hobble ‘global Britain’ by limiting people’s freedoms to work where they wish? 

I don’t think this country is best served by this government. I will carry on pointing out the catalogue of reasons why. Others are free to argue to the contrary. You are on a politics board, it’s going to party political and if you’re just going to pick fault with other people’s opinions whilst trying to stay aloof from offering your own then fine, a bit odd and weakens your position but ok all the same.

Do you read your posts? They get more ridiculous by the day.


You can argue with a country’s official inflation figure? Do give us the benefit of your “counter argument “ to that fact.
Our problems are being experienced by many countries worldwide. Give us the benefit of your “counter argument “ for that.

It is you who is “stubbornly trying to argue” that the same problems in the U.K. are solely caused by Brexit. And you, for one, certainly has not acknowledge it as a global concern by continually inferring that they are just a U.K. phenomena. 
Facts can’t be argued. Facts are not an opinion. They are facts. Not your ‘Meghanesque’ “My truth”. 

So, finally you admit that you are happy to hobble other state’s economies simply for your benefit and convenience. How very ‘global’, compassionate and internationalist of you.

Now just the answer to the question; if Freedom of Movement is the answer to the U.K.’s problems why are countries who have the ‘benefit’ of Freedom of Movement, also suffering the same problems? 

I am not taking a position so how can I be weakening it? Are you saying I am not allowed to highlight inaccuracies and falsehoods and fact ignoring “my truths” in posts? 

One last point. Are you admitting you are taking a “party political “ stance. I thought you abhorred “football supporting” style politics?

‘Not your ‘Meghanesque’ “My truth”.’ Hmm how very right of centre tabloid of you  

(11-11-2021, 10:54 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: This is ridiculous, myself and others have acknowledged time and time again that global problems are impacting the U.K. However you will not accept that Brexit will exasperate many of the problems we face be it in logistics, rising food prices, shortages of workers. No point even debating anything with you if you cannot even acknowledge this. 

(11-12-2021, 12:36 PM)Protheroe Wrote:

(11-11-2021, 10:54 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: This is ridiculous, myself and others have acknowledged time and time again that global problems are impacting the U.K. However you will not accept that Brexit will exasperate many of the problems we face be it in logistics, rising food prices, shortages of workers. No point even debating anything with you if you cannot even acknowledge this. 

Still little evidence that UK industry is being hit harder by supply problems than the rest of Europe, despite Brexit.

Industrial production fell by 0.5% in the EU in September, on top of a 1.5% fall in August; UK output fell by 0.4% after a 1% *rise*.

Output components of the manufacturing PMIs also suggest British industry held up better in October too, especially compared to Germany & France.

So yes, Britain is facing many of the same labour shortage issues in service industries as European countries are, but industrial output is being marginally less affected.

You may wish that the end of FOM was exacerbating the UK's problems, and perhaps it is - but the effect would appear to be very marginal.

What should be of more concern to employers (and of interest to wage slaves who want to see their income increase) is that there are 1.1 million current vacancies in the UK - and at the same time 38% of employees intend to change jobs in the next 12 months. There is only one direction wages are heading in the absence of unfettered FOM, and as a good Lefty I assume you'd welcome that.