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RE: UK Covid death toll - baggiebuckster - 11-19-2021
Correct - a good percentage of infections have been acquired in hospitals. Where is the evidence these are from unvaccinated staff?
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 02:38 PM)baggiebuckster Wrote: Correct - a good percentage of infections have been acquired in hospitals. Where is the evidence these are from unvaccinated staff?
There isn't because it would be impossible to identify the source, and you know that, but still ask a question as if it proves your point. However get people vaccinated and reduce the spread - that one is known.
RE: UK Covid death toll - backsidebaggie - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 02:29 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:(11-19-2021, 01:28 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(11-19-2021, 01:13 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Well I’ve just had my booster jab and will be carrying on as normal. Every now and then I will dip in to this thread and remind myself why we have seen consistently high infection rates in this country for months.
Oddly now Europe are having similar infection rates or more in Germany’s case it’s an issue again with some in the U.K. when it was just us it was nothing to see here it’s all fine! At least those countries are trying to curb their infection rates. We have a Primark Minister who can’t even be arsed to wear a fugging mask in a hospital without being reminded, or the House of Commons!
They're trying to curb their infection rates with further methods that have absolutely no scientific evidence of working (vax passports), or in Austria's case, segregation and forced vaccinations from February, with fines and imprisonment if people don't comply. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, and increasingly looks like its poor at even reducing it.
Similar measures will be coming soon here (despite not making any scientific sense), they just know they can't get away with it at the moment. Until they've "persuaded" enough people its proportionate by labelling people into groups and causing a poisonous divide.
Meanwhile, people argue about absolute bollocks like whether Boris has a mask on, instead of looking at the bigger picture at whether the measures are working worldwide, medical autonomy vs state control, what the fuck we're going to do about the care sector and NHS being decimated by losing staff to vax mandates (when I repeat, it does not prevent transmission and testing was working ok). Stop the pandemic, sack NHS staff! Genius!
It’s not a trivial matter to expect the Prime Minister to set an example of safety at all times in a hospital. He sets the tone for what is and isn’t acceptable. For example what message does it send out when you see most of the Conservative party at PMQs can’t even be bothered to wear a mask? We have had consistently high infection rates now for months and yet we do nothing about them. This complete disregard for the vulnerable be they jabbed or can’t be in this country is an awful indictment of its moral compass.
Those staff who have left or will leave their employment had a choice. Choosing not to helps literally no one including themselves let alone those they care for.
It is a completely trivial matter compared with the stuff we are talking about. Totally trivial.
Those staff who have left had a choice? Yes, I had a choice when I was asked for money or threatened to have the shit kicked out of me a few years ago one night. Some fucking choice. Coercion isn't choice. That argument can be used to "force" literally anything onto anyone. Its a crap argument and you know it.
Many are happily moving to other minimum wage jobs, as the crap pay in care means they have been able to get similar paying jobs in shops/hospitality. So it hasn't harmed them. Its harmed the patients. Can't you see this???
And yet again, I must repeat, the science indicates that the vaccines are not very good at preventing transmission! Testing has worked fine for care staff. There is no scientific reason to do this.
And I must add again, if you think this will end at care and NHS staff, you are beyond naive. Its creeping. How some can't see this, I have no idea. Look at other countries and the "direction of travel".
The discussion should be where we're going as a whole. Fines and prison in Austria. Fines and prison! Give it a month, they'll be joined by a couple more countries. For a vaccine that, I'll say again, does NOT prevent transmission. This is fucking insanity.
Do you want to give that level of power to the state? I fucking don't!! You're a massive huge critic of Johnson (and I don't blame you), but you're happy to see this lot hold this level of power over people? And not concerned we will move towards what's happening in Austria? You're stuck at arguing and debating the small things like whether the prick has a mask on, rather than the big questions and the big picture, and the patterns which we're seeing throughout the west.
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 02:40 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: The discussion should be where we're going as a whole. Fines and prison in Austria. Fines and prison! Give it a month, they'll be joined by a couple more countries. For a vaccine that, I'll say again, does NOT prevent transmission. This is fucking insanity.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/231557/covid-vaccines-effective-household-transmission-delta/
Here are 3 articles that show it reduces the spread greatly, there are loads out there. Surely every little step we can take to reducing transmission helps.
RE: UK Covid death toll - Protheroe - 11-19-2021
If my locality is anything to go by then cases are through the roof. Higher than ever in these parts - mostly amongst the double vaxxed.
RE: UK Covid death toll - Derek Hardballs - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 02:40 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(11-19-2021, 02:29 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:(11-19-2021, 01:28 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(11-19-2021, 01:13 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Well I’ve just had my booster jab and will be carrying on as normal. Every now and then I will dip in to this thread and remind myself why we have seen consistently high infection rates in this country for months.
Oddly now Europe are having similar infection rates or more in Germany’s case it’s an issue again with some in the U.K. when it was just us it was nothing to see here it’s all fine! At least those countries are trying to curb their infection rates. We have a Primark Minister who can’t even be arsed to wear a fugging mask in a hospital without being reminded, or the House of Commons!
They're trying to curb their infection rates with further methods that have absolutely no scientific evidence of working (vax passports), or in Austria's case, segregation and forced vaccinations from February, with fines and imprisonment if people don't comply. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, and increasingly looks like its poor at even reducing it.
Similar measures will be coming soon here (despite not making any scientific sense), they just know they can't get away with it at the moment. Until they've "persuaded" enough people its proportionate by labelling people into groups and causing a poisonous divide.
Meanwhile, people argue about absolute bollocks like whether Boris has a mask on, instead of looking at the bigger picture at whether the measures are working worldwide, medical autonomy vs state control, what the fuck we're going to do about the care sector and NHS being decimated by losing staff to vax mandates (when I repeat, it does not prevent transmission and testing was working ok). Stop the pandemic, sack NHS staff! Genius!
It’s not a trivial matter to expect the Prime Minister to set an example of safety at all times in a hospital. He sets the tone for what is and isn’t acceptable. For example what message does it send out when you see most of the Conservative party at PMQs can’t even be bothered to wear a mask? We have had consistently high infection rates now for months and yet we do nothing about them. This complete disregard for the vulnerable be they jabbed or can’t be in this country is an awful indictment of its moral compass.
Those staff who have left or will leave their employment had a choice. Choosing not to helps literally no one including themselves let alone those they care for.
It is a completely trivial matter compared with the stuff we are talking about. Totally trivial.
Those staff who have left had a choice? Yes, I had a choice when I was asked for money or threatened to have the shit kicked out of me a few years ago one night. Some fucking choice. Coercion isn't choice. That argument can be used to "force" literally anything onto anyone. Its a crap argument and you know it.
Many are happily moving to other minimum wage jobs, as the crap pay in care means they have been able to get similar paying jobs in shops/hospitality. So it hasn't harmed them. Its harmed the patients. Can't you see this???
And yet again, I must repeat, the science indicates that the vaccines are not very good at preventing transmission! Testing has worked fine for care staff. There is no scientific reason to do this.
And I must add again, if you think this will end at care and NHS staff, you are beyond naive. Its creeping. How some can't see this, I have no idea. Look at other countries and the "direction of travel".
The discussion should be where we're going as a whole. Fines and prison in Austria. Fines and prison! Give it a month, they'll be joined by a couple more countries. For a vaccine that, I'll say again, does NOT prevent transmission. This is fucking insanity.
Do you want to give that level of power to the state? I fucking don't!! You're a massive huge critic of Johnson (and I don't blame you), but you're happy to see this lot hold this level of power over people? And not concerned we will move towards what's happening in Austria? You're stuck at arguing and debating the small things like whether the prick has a mask on, rather than the big questions and the big picture, and the patterns which we're seeing throughout the west.
The situation is extremely complicated and there are no right or wrong answers, which is why every country is scrabbling around in the dark trying to find a solution. Some are showing more compassion and thought for the vulnerable and others than others it has to be said. Some are trying to minimise the death of their population such as New Zealand and some are pretty much letting it rip (you can decide which countries are doing this).
The vaccine reduces transmission it was never claimed it stopped it.
Taking away the choice of the vulnerable to be cared for by someone who has had the jab, is taking away the rights of that person. They can't walk away from the decisions of others and frankly I'm on the side of the underdog not the fittest they can look after themselves.
I imagine most Doctors and Nurses are utterly fed up of seeing those who have refused the jab in hospital after the grinding hard work they have put in now for two years. They must feel like they are hitting their head against a brick wall.
I wouldn't want those in this government running anything but we are stuck with them, and thanks to those who voted for them they can push through any awful, not fit for purpose, dodgy legislation they wish.
I can't feel much sympathy for those who refuse the vaccine without a medical reason, because I know those who would love to have it but can't and as a result of others who refuse the vaccine, refuse to wear masks, refuse to keep their distance, refuse to have lateral flow tests are put at serious risk every time they go out or their families have to go to work or school etc.
Of course I can see the problems that losing staff will cause, it's a massive problem, but so is trying to manage our way as a country out of a pandemic with so many refusing to have a vaccine that whatever anyone argues to the contrary clearly helps reduce death and serious illness.
(11-19-2021, 03:26 PM)Protheroe Wrote: If my locality is anything to go by then cases are through the roof. Higher than ever in these parts - mostly amongst the double vaxxed.
Yes and those in hospital are mainly unvaccinated... and given you said only a few weeks ago how high the take up of vaccination were in your area it's hardly surprising they are the most infected!
RE: UK Covid death toll - backsidebaggie - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 03:07 PM)baggy1 Wrote:(11-19-2021, 02:40 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: The discussion should be where we're going as a whole. Fines and prison in Austria. Fines and prison! Give it a month, they'll be joined by a couple more countries. For a vaccine that, I'll say again, does NOT prevent transmission. This is fucking insanity.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/231557/covid-vaccines-effective-household-transmission-delta/
Here are 3 articles that show it reduces the spread greatly, there are loads out there. Surely every little step we can take to reducing transmission helps.
It reduces the spread yes. So does regular testing!
And this is the thing, every little step we can do should be done? Since when? I know covid isn't flu, I'm not saying it is - but the fact is, if we had all taken the flu vaccine for the last 20 years, there would have been less flu deaths and reduced spread. Guaranteed. That is fact. So why has there never been any coercion for this? Not a jot! Why? Every little thing would have helped then, but its never even been considered. No one has been called an anti vaxxer for not having the flu jab, ever!
Austria threatening prison. Every little step we take helps, so that's ok? Totally excluding those from society who don't want a vaccine? Imprisoning those who don't want a vaccine? Is that ok? Every little step helps, yes? You're happy with going that far? Every little thing helps after all? It will help. I guarantee it. So that's ok???!!!!
This is the covid tunnel vision I'm talking about. If it helps with covid a bit, go ahead! Doesn't matter about other impacts, bodily autonomy, state control, effects on mental health, businesses, people in poverty, the biggest division we've ever had.... nope, none of that matters. If it helps reduce covid by a bit, some will agree to anything! Its madness Baggy1. Its covid tunnel vision.
I go back to the lockdowns last year. Now I'm not saying they were wrong. I'm not. But where was the cost benefit analysis? Increase in cancer patients? Only thing open is takeaways so large proportions of the population stayed in getting obese for months. The mental health? I've recently returned to the office and the number of people who have put a lot of weight on is insane! ironically, given the link between covid and obesity......... The lockdowns were proportionate, I'm not saying they weren't, on balance. But alarm bells rang with me when covid took over as the ONLY factor being taken into account. Nothing else mattered. That rang alarm bells for me.
Given the fact obesity is heavily correlated with covid serious illness, where's the government "instructions" been to lose weight? They've been telling people to get the vaccine, hiring fucking celebrities all over the shop to persuade people, in one of the biggest media agendas in years. Massive persuasion. Followed by coercion. Yet not once, not once have they encouraged people to lose weight, even though there is a direct correlation between being overweight and serious covid illness (and quite a significant link). This is insanity! So if we go by the notion "every little step helps", where the fuck has the "persuasion" been to lose weight? No, they closed gyms, close fucking golf courses (the safest sport you can do in covid times!) and left takeaways open. Left open takeaways and closed golf courses!!!!! For our health!!! Its so ridiculous when I type it!
I live in Jewellery Quarter and the number of takeaways being delivered in the last 18 months is beyond anything I've ever comprehended. Its unbelievable! The government have never encouraged anything else health wise to do with "helping" against covid, fitness, general respiratory health, losing weight. They've done two things: Restrict movement and going places, and vaccines. And in many cases (see Scotland), that includes restricting movement of healthy unvaccinated people, while allowing vaccinated people with covid into places???!!!! Absolute insanity!!
Can you not see how many things don't add up? This is why more and more people are questioning things, and you'll find less take the booster than took the first two jabs. People are steadily wondering what the fuck is going on, because the contradictions are absolutely enormous!
I am honestly perplexed that the things I'm describing, the enormous contradictions, haven't been more obvious to people (although I believe more and more are questioning things). The covid propaganda has consumed many people's brains and they're not thinking proportionately. I truly believe this.
However, as I say, I believe more are seeing these contradictions and moving goalposts, and are saying bollocks to it. That's why people won't wear masks in places any more. Why should they comply with mask rules when many of the other rules make jack all sense?
In response to DH's points:
I imagine most Doctors and Nurses are utterly fed up of seeing those who have refused the jab in hospital after the grinding hard work they have put in now for two years. They must feel like they are hitting their head against a brick wall. There's plenty who haven't had it themselves. And I'd imagine most don't give a toss either way, like most people.
I can't feel much sympathy for those who refuse the vaccine without a medical reason, because I know those who would love to have it but can't and as a result of others who refuse the vaccine, refuse to wear masks, refuse to keep their distance, refuse to have lateral flow tests are put at serious risk every time they go out or their families have to go to work or school etc. Its not about feeling sympathy. Its about the bigger picture. Are you happy for the state to decide what medical procedure you have not to be a second class citizen? Is what is happening in Austria not slightly worrying to you? Prison? Fucking prison? This was a 5G standard conspiracy theory 12 months ago!!
Of course I can see the problems that losing staff will cause, it's a massive problem, but so is trying to manage our way as a country out of a pandemic with so many refusing to have a vaccine that whatever anyone argues to the contrary clearly helps reduce death and serious illness. What are you on about? So many refusing it? The uptake has been excellent! And in countries such as Ireland which have even bigger uptake, stricter restrictions on passports and masks, their situation is even worse!!! There's no evidence these things are working! If you think a few more per cent having the vaccine is going to get us out of this, you are totally deluded!
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 11-19-2021
(11-19-2021, 03:26 PM)Protheroe Wrote: If my locality is anything to go by then cases are through the roof. Higher than ever in these parts - mostly amongst the double vaxxed.
Cases are not the real measure as for example my SIL had a bad dose last week, she's double vaccinated, and it meant she had to isolate and rest. Most cases will follow the same path and not need hospitalisation which is the problem. At the moment hospital numbers are relatively stable.
Just to add a bit of context to that the UK cases on a 7 day rolling average are just over 40k, the peak in cases at the worst point in January was around 60k (66%) . Compare that with hospitalisations which have a 7 day average of 6.5k in England and the hospitalisations in January at its peak being 33k (20%). If you take the average number in hospital since the start of August it's around 5.9k which shows how little its grown (to this weeks 6.5k) in nearly 4 months.
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggiebuckster - 11-22-2021
There seems to have been a lot of protests across Europe over the weekend about Covid restrictions. Even the MSM are reporting on events whereas they have ignored them previously. Going to be very interesting to see how things pan out over the next few months if more countries impose lockdowns, restrictions or mandate jabs. I think that things may get ugly.
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 10:25 AM)baggiebuckster Wrote: There seems to have been a lot of protests across Europe over the weekend about Covid restrictions. Even the MSM are reporting on events whereas they have ignored them previously. Going to be very interesting to see how things pan out over the next few months if more countries impose lockdowns, restrictions or mandate jabs. I think that things may get ugly.
With nearly 8 billion doses of the vaccine dished out globally over nearly 2 years, it's probably about time that the sceptics out there realised that there is very little risk and long term effects in having the vaccine. Instead of marching on town hall maybe a trip to the vaccination centre would have helped. If we keep thinking this can't happen to us we have about 75% of the population vaccinated, Netherland have a slightly higher %, Belgium are about the same and Austria are below 70% - All very similar figures, this should be a wake up call to those that still think we have enough people vaccinated.
And we might have been here before but it would probably not be a bad idea to suspend travel between the UK and countries that are struggling with high rates at this point.