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Chadli
#61
(10-12-2017, 12:34 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 11:21 AM)CA Baggie Wrote: Is Chadli being a twat and feigning injury to wait out a move in January, or is TP deliberately freezing him out of the match day squad to make him leave?

I don't know what Chadli's attitude is like with past employers, but I'm sure DK will provide some evidence (anecdotal maybe) of TP having form for this type of treatment when dealing with "flair" players in particular. 

Maybe the real truth lies somewhere in between - Chadli is keen to go and TP has therefore discarded him from his plans.

To be honest, I've not really followed the Chadli story, so I wasn't sure if he was injured or being frozen out. From the recent posts on here it looks like you're in the same boat. 

There are plenty of instances at Stoke where Pulis bought players in, usually attack minded players, then didn't seem to know what to do with them - Eidur Gudjohnsen, Patrick Berger, Tom Soares, Tuncay, Michael Owen, Dave Kitson. But probably the best comparison to the apparent Chadli situation would be Jermaine Pennant. 

Pennant rarely had a bad game for us under Pulis, but there were a few off the field misdemeanours, late night booze-ups, breaking curfews, and being a bit flash with the women and the cars which seemed to get him into trouble with Pulis. He got left out after one late night incident too many, and then barely had a look in after that. 

The parallel with Chadli was in what was said. Pennant claimed to be desperate to get back in the team. Pulis continually claimed that there was no problem between the two of them, and once Pennant's fitness levels were back up, then he'd be back in the team. The fitness levels never got back up, and in the meantime we tried every ill-conceived square peg in the right wing hole when it was blatantly obvious that the team were suffering without Pennant there. 

Once it had been established that Pennant was fit and was being left out, it was up to Dave 'lively and inventive' Kemp to deliver the news that he was being left out because we were 'too open' playing with two wingers. This was utter shit because our best performances AND results had been with the two wingers running at defences and chucking the crosses in for Kenwyne. And in any case, by then Etherington on the other wing had become somewhat injury-prone so it made no sense for Pennant to be the one to give way. He never got back in the team under Pulis.

There was a similar situation over Liam Lawrence who apparently fell over his own dog and was rarely seen again. But that, as they say, is another story.

You only have to look at Calum Macmanaman. Pulis bought him and gave him a few goes. He looked quite lively. He got publicly criticised by TP for diving and he was never seen again. Every time TP did mention him he often talked of no problem with the lad. He's a good lad and is training well etc etc. Yet despite these words he never made the 18.

Now I'm not saying for one minute he was in Chadli's class but merely the fact that what TP says publicly and what he actually does with the player doesn't often tally up.
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#62
(10-12-2017, 02:17 PM)Peachy Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 12:34 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 11:21 AM)CA Baggie Wrote: Is Chadli being a twat and feigning injury to wait out a move in January, or is TP deliberately freezing him out of the match day squad to make him leave?

I don't know what Chadli's attitude is like with past employers, but I'm sure DK will provide some evidence (anecdotal maybe) of TP having form for this type of treatment when dealing with "flair" players in particular. 

Maybe the real truth lies somewhere in between - Chadli is keen to go and TP has therefore discarded him from his plans.

To be honest, I've not really followed the Chadli story, so I wasn't sure if he was injured or being frozen out. From the recent posts on here it looks like you're in the same boat. 

There are plenty of instances at Stoke where Pulis bought players in, usually attack minded players, then didn't seem to know what to do with them - Eidur Gudjohnsen, Patrick Berger, Tom Soares, Tuncay, Michael Owen, Dave Kitson. But probably the best comparison to the apparent Chadli situation would be Jermaine Pennant. 

Pennant rarely had a bad game for us under Pulis, but there were a few off the field misdemeanours, late night booze-ups, breaking curfews, and being a bit flash with the women and the cars which seemed to get him into trouble with Pulis. He got left out after one late night incident too many, and then barely had a look in after that. 

The parallel with Chadli was in what was said. Pennant claimed to be desperate to get back in the team. Pulis continually claimed that there was no problem between the two of them, and once Pennant's fitness levels were back up, then he'd be back in the team. The fitness levels never got back up, and in the meantime we tried every ill-conceived square peg in the right wing hole when it was blatantly obvious that the team were suffering without Pennant there. 

Once it had been established that Pennant was fit and was being left out, it was up to Dave 'lively and inventive' Kemp to deliver the news that he was being left out because we were 'too open' playing with two wingers. This was utter shit because our best performances AND results had been with the two wingers running at defences and chucking the crosses in for Kenwyne. And in any case, by then Etherington on the other wing had become somewhat injury-prone so it made no sense for Pennant to be the one to give way. He never got back in the team under Pulis.

There was a similar situation over Liam Lawrence who apparently fell over his own dog and was rarely seen again. But that, as they say, is another story.

You only have to look at Calum Macmanaman. Pulis bought him and gave him a few goes. He looked quite lively. He got publicly criticised by TP for diving and he was never seen again. Every time TP did mention him he often talked of no problem with the lad. He's a good lad and is training well etc etc. Yet despite these words he never made the 18.

Now I'm not saying for one minute he was in Chadli's class but merely the fact that what TP says publicly and what he actually does with the player doesn't often tally up.

Have most of these players mentioned gone on to better?
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#63
(10-12-2017, 02:54 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 02:17 PM)Peachy Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 12:34 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 11:21 AM)CA Baggie Wrote: Is Chadli being a twat and feigning injury to wait out a move in January, or is TP deliberately freezing him out of the match day squad to make him leave?

I don't know what Chadli's attitude is like with past employers, but I'm sure DK will provide some evidence (anecdotal maybe) of TP having form for this type of treatment when dealing with "flair" players in particular. 

Maybe the real truth lies somewhere in between - Chadli is keen to go and TP has therefore discarded him from his plans.

To be honest, I've not really followed the Chadli story, so I wasn't sure if he was injured or being frozen out. From the recent posts on here it looks like you're in the same boat. 

There are plenty of instances at Stoke where Pulis bought players in, usually attack minded players, then didn't seem to know what to do with them - Eidur Gudjohnsen, Patrick Berger, Tom Soares, Tuncay, Michael Owen, Dave Kitson. But probably the best comparison to the apparent Chadli situation would be Jermaine Pennant. 

Pennant rarely had a bad game for us under Pulis, but there were a few off the field misdemeanours, late night booze-ups, breaking curfews, and being a bit flash with the women and the cars which seemed to get him into trouble with Pulis. He got left out after one late night incident too many, and then barely had a look in after that. 

The parallel with Chadli was in what was said. Pennant claimed to be desperate to get back in the team. Pulis continually claimed that there was no problem between the two of them, and once Pennant's fitness levels were back up, then he'd be back in the team. The fitness levels never got back up, and in the meantime we tried every ill-conceived square peg in the right wing hole when it was blatantly obvious that the team were suffering without Pennant there. 

Once it had been established that Pennant was fit and was being left out, it was up to Dave 'lively and inventive' Kemp to deliver the news that he was being left out because we were 'too open' playing with two wingers. This was utter shit because our best performances AND results had been with the two wingers running at defences and chucking the crosses in for Kenwyne. And in any case, by then Etherington on the other wing had become somewhat injury-prone so it made no sense for Pennant to be the one to give way. He never got back in the team under Pulis.

There was a similar situation over Liam Lawrence who apparently fell over his own dog and was rarely seen again. But that, as they say, is another story.

You only have to look at Calum Macmanaman. Pulis bought him and gave him a few goes. He looked quite lively. He got publicly criticised by TP for diving and he was never seen again. Every time TP did mention him he often talked of no problem with the lad. He's a good lad and is training well etc etc. Yet despite these words he never made the 18.

Now I'm not saying for one minute he was in Chadli's class but merely the fact that what TP says publicly and what he actually does with the player doesn't often tally up.

Have most of these players mentioned gone on to better?

Than sitting at home while Stoke played? Yeah, all of 'em.

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#64
Pennant went on to sit on the bench at Pune City after leaving Stoke. I think most would probably rather be still on the Stoke Payroll and not playing
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#65
(10-12-2017, 03:09 PM)ASOGF Wrote: Pennant went on to sit on the bench at Pune City after leaving Stoke. I think most would probably rather be still on the Stoke Payroll and not playing

By then he was past his best. The point I was making about Pennant at the time he appeared to have been given the cold shoulder was that he'd been playing well, and we had no other right winger. Basically, we were cutting off our nose to spite our face, so to speak. 

I'm not sure in this instance that where the players ended up after Stoke is particularly relevant. They were good enough in Pulis' eyes when he bought them.

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#66
It does have more than a whiff of itll be managed til Xmas and he'll be shipped out.
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#67
(10-12-2017, 03:23 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 03:09 PM)ASOGF Wrote: Pennant went on to sit on the bench at Pune City after leaving Stoke. I think most would probably rather be still on the Stoke Payroll and not playing

By then he was past his best. The point I was making about Pennant at the time he appeared to have been given the cold shoulder was that he'd been playing well, and we had no other right winger. Basically, we were cutting off our nose to spite our face, so to speak. 

I'm not sure in this instance that where the players ended up after Stoke is particularly relevant. They were good enough in Pulis' eyes when he bought them.
Equally though there is no 'real' correlation between Chadli and any players at Stoke, inc Pennant. We can all find things that aren't really there. Sessegnon was frozen out albeit not through injury and came back. Likewise Evans didn't do pre-season and came back albeit  he's not an attacking player. As Rich said earlier no one has a clue what is happening, plain and simple
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#68
DK, you only get a snapshot of a player before they come to the club. A large proportion of transfers don't work out for whatever reason and despite the perception of Pulis not being great in the market, his proportion of successes since he's been at Albion have at worst been around the same rate as the rest of the PL and I'd argue significantly more successful than that in fact.

Managers don't get to see so many things about a player until he signs. Performance in training, attitude, adaptability to a new squad, adaptability to a new area; these are just a few of the things that are very difficult to predict prior to a transfer being completed. I think it's a massive over-simplification to say "he signed him, therefore he's good enough and should be played". Particularly when you're talking about someone like Pennant who has a massive history of attitude problems and misdemeanours. Who knows what was going on behind the scenes, despite what Pennant was saying in public. I remember Taarabt had a similar thing a couple of years ago at about 3 different clubs where he claimed to be desperate to play in public despite being nothing but trouble and about 2 stone overweight behind the scenes.

I also don't subscribe to this idea that we should know exactly what the team is going to be each week. Some still moan because CMac wasn't chosen when McClean got injured because Pulis said a couple of months earlier McClean was the reason he wasn't playing. Firstly, a lot can happen in two months, secondly I'm sure that the comments were aimed as much at CMac than the fans (maybe a "try and get your fitness to the point where you can get through 65 minutes of a game because we might need you soon") and thirdly, there's a disadvantage if the opposition knows what your 11 is going to be, your formation is going to be.

Pulis is undoubtedly full of bollocks about some of this selection stuff, but I'd prefer his mind games to handing over our team sheet 3 days before a game. He plays mind games to try and get a rise out of his players. Sometimes it works magnificently; like with Phillips and sometimes it fails miserably; like with CMac.
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#69
(10-12-2017, 02:54 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 02:17 PM)Peachy Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 12:34 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(10-12-2017, 11:21 AM)CA Baggie Wrote: Is Chadli being a twat and feigning injury to wait out a move in January, or is TP deliberately freezing him out of the match day squad to make him leave?

I don't know what Chadli's attitude is like with past employers, but I'm sure DK will provide some evidence (anecdotal maybe) of TP having form for this type of treatment when dealing with "flair" players in particular. 

Maybe the real truth lies somewhere in between - Chadli is keen to go and TP has therefore discarded him from his plans.

To be honest, I've not really followed the Chadli story, so I wasn't sure if he was injured or being frozen out. From the recent posts on here it looks like you're in the same boat. 

There are plenty of instances at Stoke where Pulis bought players in, usually attack minded players, then didn't seem to know what to do with them - Eidur Gudjohnsen, Patrick Berger, Tom Soares, Tuncay, Michael Owen, Dave Kitson. But probably the best comparison to the apparent Chadli situation would be Jermaine Pennant. 

Pennant rarely had a bad game for us under Pulis, but there were a few off the field misdemeanours, late night booze-ups, breaking curfews, and being a bit flash with the women and the cars which seemed to get him into trouble with Pulis. He got left out after one late night incident too many, and then barely had a look in after that. 

The parallel with Chadli was in what was said. Pennant claimed to be desperate to get back in the team. Pulis continually claimed that there was no problem between the two of them, and once Pennant's fitness levels were back up, then he'd be back in the team. The fitness levels never got back up, and in the meantime we tried every ill-conceived square peg in the right wing hole when it was blatantly obvious that the team were suffering without Pennant there. 

Once it had been established that Pennant was fit and was being left out, it was up to Dave 'lively and inventive' Kemp to deliver the news that he was being left out because we were 'too open' playing with two wingers. This was utter shit because our best performances AND results had been with the two wingers running at defences and chucking the crosses in for Kenwyne. And in any case, by then Etherington on the other wing had become somewhat injury-prone so it made no sense for Pennant to be the one to give way. He never got back in the team under Pulis.

There was a similar situation over Liam Lawrence who apparently fell over his own dog and was rarely seen again. But that, as they say, is another story.

You only have to look at Calum Macmanaman. Pulis bought him and gave him a few goes. He looked quite lively. He got publicly criticised by TP for diving and he was never seen again. Every time TP did mention him he often talked of no problem with the lad. He's a good lad and is training well etc etc. Yet despite these words he never made the 18.

Now I'm not saying for one minute he was in Chadli's class but merely the fact that what TP says publicly and what he actually does with the player doesn't often tally up.

Have most of these players mentioned gone on to better?

Arf!!

Pulis plucks him from league one, bombs him from the squad within a few months and banishes him totally from the 18 man squad for two years!!!

Who the fucks going to come in for him? Madrid or Barca ffs! How is he going to make an upward move from us with the previous two years of inactivity?
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#70
(10-12-2017, 03:49 PM)ASOGF Wrote: DK, you only get a snapshot of a player before they come to the club. A large proportion of transfers don't work out for whatever reason and despite the perception of Pulis not being great in the market, his proportion of successes since he's been at Albion have at worst been around the same rate as the rest of the PL and I'd argue significantly more successful than that in fact.

Managers don't get to see so many things about a player until he signs. Performance in training, attitude, adaptability to a new squad, adaptability to a new area; these are just a few of the things that are very difficult to predict prior to a transfer being completed. I think it's a massive over-simplification to say "he signed him, therefore he's good enough and should be played". Particularly when you're talking about someone like Pennant who has a massive history of attitude problems and misdemeanours. Who knows what was going on behind the scenes, despite what Pennant was saying in public. I remember Taarabt had a similar thing a couple of years ago at about 3 different clubs where he claimed to be desperate to play in public despite being nothing but trouble and about 2 stone overweight behind the scenes.

I also don't subscribe to this idea that we should know exactly what the team is going to be each week. Some still moan because CMac wasn't chosen when McClean got injured because Pulis said a couple of months earlier McClean was the reason he wasn't playing. Firstly, a lot can happen in two months, secondly I'm sure that the comments were aimed as much at CMac than the fans (maybe a "try and get your fitness to the point where you can get through 65 minutes of a game because we might need you soon") and thirdly, there's a disadvantage if the opposition knows what your 11 is going to be, your formation is going to be.

Pulis is undoubtedly full of bollocks about some of this selection stuff, but I'd prefer his mind games to handing over our team sheet 3 days before a game. He plays mind games to try and get a rise out of his players. Sometimes it works magnificently; like with Phillips and sometimes it fails miserably; like with CMac.

Not much to disagree with there ASOGF, and in fairness, if you'd turned the conversation to Mark Hughes I'd have been equally as forthright in stating that he doesn't know how the feck to deal with a decent proportion of the talent at his disposal either.

With Pulis though it becomes a bit of a cliche which I can lazily tag onto because with his overly defensive mindset which always ground my gears, it's largely the flair players that he failed to get a tune out of. The joke on the Oatcake towards the end of his time at Stoke was that he was like Andy out of Little Britain going round saying "I want that one" before buying another player that he liked the look of without thinking how he could fit them into his own particular team plan.

I've always loved the transfer window. Inwardly I'm like a kid at Christmas looking forward to seeing what shiny new toys there were to play with. The players I referred to in my earlier post were all players that excited me, but then we largely never saw them, or they were quickly discarded. By the time Pulis left us I really couldn't have given a toss who we signed because I knew they wouldn't be allowed to live up to expectations. 

I'd reached the end after 10 years of Pulisball, and that's why I'm always inclined to cut Hughes some slack, because for all his faults, he rekindled my love for Stoke City.

(10-12-2017, 03:48 PM)WorcBaggie Wrote: Equally though there is no 'real' correlation between Chadli and any players at Stoke, inc Pennant. We can all find things that aren't really there. Sessegnon was frozen out albeit not through injury and came back. Likewise Evans didn't do pre-season and came back albeit  he's not an attacking player. As Rich said earlier no one has a clue what is happening, plain and simple

And again, I agree Worc. No one knows the truth of what goes on at football clubs in 95% of cases. But with any manager, patterns start to emerge. With Pennant, as with Liam Lawrence, the manager was saying they weren't fit enough to play while the players were saying they were raring to go. Things just didn't make sense. The Chadli situation seems to have the potential to head that way too.

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