The disgusting truth about Hillsborough

[Spandaubaggie]

The thread earlier about Duckenfield being found not guilty at Hillsborough has, as is synonymous on here, started plenty of anti Liverpool sentiment.
I personally don’t have the vitriol for Liverpool as a club, as all clubs have good and bad fans. They have more idiots than most, but even in the worst clubs the low life still make up a small percentage.
The rest are just normal people, who come from decent families and love their football.
I must admit though until tonight I didn’t know the full story of that day, but a 3 part podcast on the BBC has clarified it.
I’m embarrassed about the gaps in my knowledge.
Fact is the authorities are 100 per cent, indisputable, to blame!
At Hillsborough, Police opened a gate as they hadn’t manned the turnstiles properly which pushed thousands into a pen, where there was terracing spacing in pens on either side. Instead a surge of thousands pushed through the middle into one pen, called pen 3. No ticket less fans to blame, even a little bit, which I did earlier. There was a total lack of policing including only one who some met through the gate who admitted he couldn't do anything as he couldn't speak to anyone as he hadn't a radio.
It was just complete disorganisation.
The tales of normal people, one who said until then he had trusted authority but never again, is powerful as is the tales of dads who went there, with school children the age of mine now and saw their kids die in front of them.
Can you imagine taking your kids to the Albion and them dying in front of you? Please picture this and ask would you be angry and have got over it?
These are accounts from decent people from a different city, not the minority of scally feral scum, who some on here paint a picture of as everything to do with Liverpool FC.
It's worth adding, the vast majority of Liverpool fans have no reason to apologise for Heysel, any more than most on here need to apologise for England fans abroad running amok.
As I said in the earlier thread, I was in Leppings Lane at the 87 semi with the Leeds fans, as my mate got me a ticket to go with him.
That day was also terrifying, the most dangerous situation I've ever found myself in at a match due to the crush and it could have happened then.
In conclusion it was total ineptitude by several authorities, most notably the police, and plenty of lies and collusion leading all the way to government that is the whole story. 
Here's the first episode for those of you who want to listen. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07wch5g 
I guarantee if you do and are any way right you’ll never call them candle lighters again!

[HugeHons]

Remember,also,the immovable fences erected at the grounds in those days.For a few years afterwards they changed them so they could be opened in case of a crush. I can remember safety briefings at the Albion before games where stewards would open the ‘fences’.

[CA Baggie]

I think most of a certain age know the story of what happened.

The newspaper reporting and how the police lied etc (especially after the crush post 3.15) is shocking and needed exposing.

It has to be taken in the context of the times - the police under the thatcher government had been used as a tool for imposing many things and probably felt untouchable. Lying and cover-ups were part of the culture.

The thing I think that gets people’s backs up is the idea that the fans played no part in what happened, whether on this specific day or their past reputation.

Liverpool fans were known for being one of the worst sets of hooligans in the country, their rioting had led to the deaths of 39 at Heysel and were also known for jibbing into grounds. They did it in Athens in 2005 ffs.

I’m sure many were late due to the traffic, but many also left it until the last minute and they weren’t exactly politely queuing and waiting their turn outside the ground. With their penchant for violence and pushing through you can understand why the decision was made to open the gate. The fact they weren’t properly directed thereafter is a safety issue that the stewards/police ARE answerable for and what ultimately led to the crush.

In those days kick offs weren’t delayed for congestion etc, you just missed the start, it was this tragedy that has led to delayed kick offs.

I think if the Liverpool fans acknowledged that their past behaviour (and late arrival, not all were in traffic) played a part in influencing the decision making they’d get a lot more sympathy instead of painting them all as innocent angels. The innocent were already in the ground.

Someone on the other thread mentioned the reaction at the hawthorn’s that day. From memory the HT tannoy was that the match was delayed due to crowd disturbances so no HT score. Typical scousers was the general feeling.

[bradesbaggie]

Excellent OP.

The attitude of some on here shows the serf like subservience to their 'betters' is still in play.

[Albionmad]

I think most of a certain age know the story of what happened.  

The newspaper reporting and how the police lied etc (especially after the crush post 3.15) is shocking and needed exposing.  

It has to be taken in the context of the times - the police under the thatcher government had been used as a tool for imposing many things and probably felt untouchable.  Lying and cover-ups were part of the culture.

The thing I think that gets people’s backs up is the idea that the fans played no part in what happened, whether on this specific day or their past reputation.

Liverpool fans were known for being one of the worst sets of hooligans in the country, their rioting had led to the deaths of 39 at Heysel and were also known for jibbing into grounds.  They did it in Athens in 2005 ffs.

I’m sure many were late due to the traffic, but many also left it until the last minute and they weren’t exactly politely queuing and waiting their turn outside the ground.  With their penchant for violence and pushing through you can understand why the decision was made to open the gate.  The fact they weren’t properly directed thereafter is a safety issue that the stewards/police ARE answerable for and what ultimately led to the crush.

In those days kick offs weren’t delayed for congestion etc, you just missed the start, it was this tragedy that has led to delayed kick offs.

I think if the Liverpool fans acknowledged that their past behaviour (and late arrival, not all were in traffic) played a part in influencing the decision making they’d get a lot more sympathy instead of painting them all as innocent angels.  The innocent were already in the ground.

Someone on the other thread mentioned the reaction at the hawthorn’s that day.  From memory the HT tannoy was that the match was delayed due to crowd disturbances so no HT score.  Typical scousers was the general feeling.

+ 1000000. 
Blame has to be apportioned all round not just one chief police officer who's now been tried 3 times. 
Yes he made crucially bad decisions but had had very little experience of policing football crowds. So if anyone is looking to hang, draw and quarter a police official, they need to go higher up the chain of command. 
As you say, if there was a smidgeon of acceptance from Liverpool fans that their track record contributed to the disaster, they (not the 96 who were innocent victims) would get a lot more expressions of sympathy.

[rsbaggy2]

I think most of a certain age know the story of what happened.  

The newspaper reporting and how the police lied etc (especially after the crush post 3.15) is shocking and needed exposing.  

It has to be taken in the context of the times - the police under the thatcher government had been used as a tool for imposing many things and probably felt untouchable.  Lying and cover-ups were part of the culture.

The thing I think that gets people’s backs up is the idea that the fans played no part in what happened, whether on this specific day or their past reputation.

Liverpool fans were known for being one of the worst sets of hooligans in the country, their rioting had led to the deaths of 39 at Heysel and were also known for jibbing into grounds.  They did it in Athens in 2005 ffs.

I’m sure many were late due to the traffic, but many also left it until the last minute and they weren’t exactly politely queuing and waiting their turn outside the ground.  With their penchant for violence and pushing through you can understand why the decision was made to open the gate.  The fact they weren’t properly directed thereafter is a safety issue that the stewards/police ARE answerable for and what ultimately led to the crush.

In those days kick offs weren’t delayed for congestion etc, you just missed the start, it was this tragedy that has led to delayed kick offs.

I think if the Liverpool fans acknowledged that their past behaviour (and late arrival, not all were in traffic) played a part in influencing the decision making they’d get a lot more sympathy instead of painting them all as innocent angels.  The innocent were already in the ground.

Someone on the other thread mentioned the reaction at the hawthorn’s that day.  From memory the HT tannoy was that the match was delayed due to crowd disturbances so no HT score.  Typical scousers was the general feeling.

+ 1000000. 
Blame has to be apportioned all round not just one chief police officer who's now been tried 3 times. 
Yes he made crucially bad decisions but had had very little experience of policing football crowds. So if anyone is looking to hang, draw and quarter a police official, they need to go higher up the chain of command. 
As you say, if there was a smidgeon of acceptance from Liverpool fans that their track record contributed to the disaster, they (not the 96 who were innocent victims) would get a lot more expressions of sympathy.

+1
I hold my hand up and accept that candle lighters is a provocative description but in no way have I suggested on the other thread that ALL Liverpool fans are to blame.
But the inescapable truth is that they did have a reputation, deserved or not, that went before them. I also said that let the safer grounds be the legacy of the 96 who perished.
The whole 30 year saga has destroyed the lives of those who lost loved ones and perhaps it's now time for some closure. To continue to fight what looks like a losing cause will only serve to add more pain.

[Spandaubaggie]

rsbaggy, all football fans had a reputation based on the few hooligans.
Predominantly, arrogant military style policing was the issue.
Why should Liverpool fans have to apologise for their minority hooligans any more than any of us?
In 87 at the Coventry Leeds semi there was no talk of ticketless fans, but it’s documented about in that year and 81 where Wolves played Spurs there were also issues in Leppings Lane.
The authorities never learnt- they treated all football fans as scum and Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen due to the vile Thatcher government.
Liverpool fans have every right to have a chip about this. State collusion end up with 96 people killed. Give that thought some mental digestion.

[tiptontown]

rsbaggy, all football fans had a reputation based on the few hooligans.
Predominantly, arrogant military style policing was the issue.
Why should Liverpool fans have to apologise for their minority hooligans any more than any of us?
In 87 at the Coventry Leeds semi there was no talk of ticketless fans, but it’s documented about in that year and 81 where Wolves played Spurs there were also issues in Leppings Lane.
The authorities never learnt- they treated all football fans as scum and Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen due to the vile Thatcher government.
Liverpool fans have every right to have a chip about this. State collusion end up with 96 people killed. Give that thought some mental digestion.

As I said on the other thread, the authorities allowed football stadia in that era to become very dangerous places especially with the introduction of fixed fencing. Yes, we all know that was down to the hooliganism of that period, but there was very little thought went into spectator safety at that time and it took the deaths at Hillsborough and also Bradford for the authorities to take notice and to implement standards and more health and safety into football stadiums.
For me this is where the biggest blame lies.

[cornishbaggie]

I think most of a certain age know the story of what happened.  

The newspaper reporting and how the police lied etc (especially after the crush post 3.15) is shocking and needed exposing.  

It has to be taken in the context of the times - the police under the thatcher government had been used as a tool for imposing many things and probably felt untouchable.  Lying and cover-ups were part of the culture.

The thing I think that gets people’s backs up is the idea that the fans played no part in what happened, whether on this specific day or their past reputation.

Liverpool fans were known for being one of the worst sets of hooligans in the country, their rioting had led to the deaths of 39 at Heysel and were also known for jibbing into grounds.  They did it in Athens in 2005 ffs.

I’m sure many were late due to the traffic, but many also left it until the last minute and they weren’t exactly politely queuing and waiting their turn outside the ground.  With their penchant for violence and pushing through you can understand why the decision was made to open the gate.  The fact they weren’t properly directed thereafter is a safety issue that the stewards/police ARE answerable for and what ultimately led to the crush.

In those days kick offs weren’t delayed for congestion etc, you just missed the start, it was this tragedy that has led to delayed kick offs.

I think if the Liverpool fans acknowledged that their past behaviour (and late arrival, not all were in traffic) played a part in influencing the decision making they’d get a lot more sympathy instead of painting them all as innocent angels.  The innocent were already in the ground.

Someone on the other thread mentioned the reaction at the hawthorn’s that day.  From memory the HT tannoy was that the match was delayed due to crowd disturbances so no HT score.  Typical scousers was the general feeling.

Again a reply ignoring the facts, Liverpool had 7 turnstiles to admit 10,100 fans into Leppings lane, who can say anyone arrived late, in fact Liverpool had 23 turnstiles for access that day, Forest had 60. Every fact that we now know about that day, proves one thing above all, it was a disaster waiting to happen and happen it would to any well supported team.
The line of " past behavior and reputation " is oft trotted out on this subject, so it seems the whole world and it's mother were aware of this, except those in charge that day.

[Ampadu's Left Boot]

rsbaggy, all football fans had a reputation based on the few hooligans.
Predominantly, arrogant military style policing was the issue.
Why should Liverpool fans have to apologise for their minority hooligans any more than any of us?
In 87 at the Coventry Leeds semi there was no talk of ticketless fans, but it’s documented about in that year and 81 where Wolves played Spurs there were also issues in Leppings Lane.
The authorities never learnt- they treated all football fans as scum and Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen due to the vile Thatcher government.
Liverpool fans have every right to have a chip about this. State collusion end up with 96 people killed. Give that thought some mental digestion.

I'm no fan of Thatcher, Labour or any of the fuckers, but the bold is a bit ridiculous. At the time there was a very significant minority of fans from many clubs that were hell-bent on causing trouble when they could and the erection of fences around the grounds were an effect of this. When were fences installed, the mid '70's under Labour? Was this a choice of the clubs, the Government, or both?

Was the policing of fans on the continent any different from that in the UK at the time? If not then was that due to the vile Thatcher government as well?

As you say, Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen. This was due to a perfect storm of circumstances and the design of that particular end of that particular ground - which prior to the erection of fences but especially the pens there - had not been a safety issue previously.

Here's some footage of the Wolves v Spurs '81 match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZeFtviJiM

Look at how packed it is in Leppings Lane at 4.10 compared to other parts of the ground.

Footage from Coverntry v Leeds '87:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH27snFKtW8&t=305s

A comment at the bottom of the video:

'the police delayed the kick off for 20 minutes. My brother who was in the leppings lane end nearly died through lack of oxygen. It was utter madness. Sadly an accident waiting to happen.RIP the 96. LUFC.'



The state collusion to cover up exactly what had caused the tragedy for so long is a disgrace without a doubt.