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Remainers' voting destination
#1
Remainers: what destination did YOU vote for?

After all, when people voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, they didn't vote for the destination of the EU, nor the constitution, I mean Lisbon Treaty.

Where do you think the EU you voted to stay in will be and will have evolved to in 5, 10, 20 years?
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#2
I think I've answered this before in other threads. To be honest I don't see how it is relevant. We lost, you now have what you want, lead us.
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#3
I suppose it depends on what your motivation for voting remain were.

Mine was most importantly retention f freedom of movement. I feel a freedom has been taken away from me and more importantly my children, that being the right if I/they wish to go and reside/work in anyone of 27 sovereign countries. Individual freedoms are hard won and to throw them away so carelessly is depressing.

I also believe that many of the problems we face going forward are ones that can only be tackled by international co-operation. To leave an organisation which encourages if not expects such co-operation is short sighted.

Last of all, I believe that on the balance of probabilities we will as a country perform better economically inside the EU, rather than outside it. But I am no economics expert, and economics is no exact science, and I am not sure whether EU membership is the key factor in economics performance. I was never completely convinced by the dire warnings some on the remain campaign made - I just have the inkling things will be tougher outside the EU.
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#4
(05-18-2017, 09:22 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I think I've answered this before in other threads. To be honest I don't see how it is relevant. We lost, you now have what you want, lead us.

Think the question is still relevant. It asks what you thought you were voting for at the time, not where we are now.

I think you said previously you were worried about federalistation. So was I and assuming you were a remainer we came up with a different answer.

So to answer your other post regarding why I voted leave, main reasons

a) Not to be part of the United States of Europe.
b) Any laws made to be answerable to our own parliament and MP's and not subject to 27 other countries who may all have their own agendas and vetos
c) A non-discriminatory immigration policy where the nationality you have does not put you in an advantageous position over other countries
d) To be able to make our own trade deals with any country we wish to.

I appreciate the trade deals, especially with the single market will be difficult, but that's up to the politicians to sort out. 

Will it all end in tears or be a success - Remains (excuse the pun) to be seen
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#5
(05-18-2017, 09:45 AM)Strawman Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 09:22 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I think I've answered this before in other threads. To be honest I don't see how it is relevant. We lost, you now have what you want, lead us.

Think the question is still relevant. It asks what you thought you were voting for at the time, not where we are now.

I think you said previously you were worried about federalistation. So was I and assuming you were a remainer we came up with a different answer.

So to answer your other post regarding why I voted leave, main reasons

a) Not to be part of the United States of Europe.
b) Any laws made to be answerable to our own parliament and MP's and not subject to 27 other countries who may all have their own agendas and vetos
c) A non-discriminatory immigration policy where the nationality you have does not put you in an advantageous position over other countries
d) To be able to make our own trade deals with any country we wish to.

I appreciate the trade deals, especially with the single market will be difficult, but that's up to the politicians to sort out. 

Will it all end in tears or be a success - Remains (excuse the pun) to be seen

I was asking where you wanted us to end up at the end of the process rather than why you voted leave.

Yes I was against further federalisation but as I said before I think a close remain vote would have had the desired effect plus I don't think there is enough appetite for it in Giuseppe public across the continent. The resounding victory for Macron I think was more to do with too many people not being able to stomach voting for Front National than a pro EU vote. Euroscepticism in France hasn't gone away and I think the EU still fear what may happen there in 5 years time . Who knows if Macron fails and Le Pen rebrands the FN enough or a right-wing party/new Macron to the centre (on a eurosceptic ticket) takes enough of her ground (sounds familiar?) the potential of Frexit maybe on the cards again. We'll see what effect the Brexit negotiations have on this.

I think there's one thing we all can agree on. We live in interesting times.
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#6
(05-18-2017, 10:36 AM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 09:45 AM)Strawman Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 09:22 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I think I've answered this before in other threads. To be honest I don't see how it is relevant. We lost, you now have what you want, lead us.

Think the question is still relevant. It asks what you thought you were voting for at the time, not where we are now.

I think you said previously you were worried about federalistation. So was I and assuming you were a remainer we came up with a different answer.

So to answer your other post regarding why I voted leave, main reasons

a) Not to be part of the United States of Europe.
b) Any laws made to be answerable to our own parliament and MP's and not subject to 27 other countries who may all have their own agendas and vetos
c) A non-discriminatory immigration policy where the nationality you have does not put you in an advantageous position over other countries
d) To be able to make our own trade deals with any country we wish to.

I appreciate the trade deals, especially with the single market will be difficult, but that's up to the politicians to sort out. 

Will it all end in tears or be a success - Remains (excuse the pun) to be seen

I was asking where you wanted us to end up at the end of the process rather than why you voted leave.

Yes I was against further federalisation but as I said before I think a close remain vote would have had the desired effect plus I don't think there is enough appetite for it in Giuseppe public across the continent. The resounding victory for Macron I think was more to do with too many people not being able to stomach voting for Front National than a pro EU vote. Euroscepticism in France hasn't gone away and I think the EU still fear what may happen there in 5 years time . Who knows if Macron fails and Le Pen rebrands the FN enough or a right-wing party/new Macron to the centre (on a eurosceptic ticket) takes enough of her ground (sounds familiar?) the potential of Frexit maybe on the cards again. We'll see what effect the Brexit negotiations have on this.

I think there's one thing we all can agree on. We live in interesting times.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/el...-miracles/#
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#7
To Zolty Shabby and Straw, you can cut that out for a start.   Calm, reasoned, well drafted and respectful arguments will never do on this bored. See, it is possible to have reasoned arguments without decending into abuse

Great posts, lovely to read.
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#8
I voted remain simply because leave couldn't prove we would be better off. Since I wasn't unhappy with EU, though not a lover of it either, logic dictates I vote remain.

As it stands I can't say what the correct decision was. I still hold that it matters little to me. In a year I'll have a degree in Computer Science, I'll get a visa to work anywhere in the world, If leaving was a mistake I'll be gone. If it was the right decision great.
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#9
(05-18-2017, 09:22 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I think I've answered this before in other threads. To be honest I don't see how it is relevant. We lost, you now have what you want, lead us.

It's still a valid discussion.
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#10
Free movement which I have richly benefited from personally but also feel the UK has done so.
Free trade which has allowed the UK to benefit and become the European place to do finance business
Having a louder voice being part of a bigger club than just a small nation outside.

I am no big fan of Brussels and the way Europe works but not sure we are much better at a UK level.
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