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Nick Clegg caught-out lying about single market
#11
(05-16-2017, 10:06 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 09:38 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 05:41 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote: There is no mandate for leaving the single market, there is a mandate for leaving the EU. The only mandate is leaving the EU, which contrary to a few ideologues, isn't the single market.

The leave side argued leaving the European single market, and two separate cases of staying in the single market Norway (EEA) and Swiss (EFTA). There was no mandate for leaving with no trade deal and resorting to WTO solely either. These are all ideas.

If remain won and tried to use that as a means for pro federalisation I would be extremely pissed off. That is one scenario of us staying. Another was us keeping the status quo or implementing Cameron's reforms. These are also ideas.

The only thing made clear was that it was the governments role to implement their idea after the referendum.

This coming general election will provide a government mandate on Brexit as there isn't one currently. Labour and the Tories have said no freedom of movement (leaving the single market), Lib Dems have said joining the EEA (staying in the single market). The party with the majority of seats will then have a mandate for their idea of Brexit (let's not beat around the bush. The conservatives will win and will implement their mandate on leaving the single market)

The only person lying is you.

Stronger in, Vote Leave (the official campaign, remember) and the two most senior government figures, the PM and Chancellor, all clearly stated that a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the single market. You must have been too unaware to have noticed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dghdvVbtowM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNnh-KhiLm0

So, mon ami, is anyone's lying here, it's not me. 

Apology accepted.

[Image: ballot-paper.jpg]
I don't have to apologise, I have the a picture of the actual ballot paper that was used.

You, and many other people, want to leave the single market. That does not mean that you, and many other people, voted to leave the single market. My mum voted to leave the EU, she wants to remain in the single market. These were all ideas on what leaving entailed, it isn't what was voted on. It was about what could happen, not will happen.

The single market is not the EU. Leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. The single market is a common market that consists of the 28 (soon to be 27) EU member states along with the European Economic Area, Croatia who is subject to all EU regulation as per their position as a provisional EU member, and Switzerland through a bilateral trade agreement.

As I said above, people argued for leaving the single market particularly the Norway model due to the banking passport but also the Swiss model, people in the government, people in the vote leave campaign.

There is no mandate on leaving the single market. A mandate is a specific thing in politics, it is when authority is granted through a vote. An MP is a mandate, a manifesto is a mandate and a referendum result is a mandate. There was no referendum on leaving the single market. The referendum wasn't split leave the single market with free trade, leave the single market with WTO, Swiss model, Norway model, status quo, Cameron's reforms, full federalisation and Euro.

And as I said, because of there being no mandate, both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems.

This entire thread is you trying to have a go at Nick Clegg because you don't know what the vote was about. You knew what you wanted but that isn't what you voted for. You know why you voted as you did but you don't know what you voted for. Either that or you're lying about Nick Clegg lying because you don't know what a mandate is.

You have missed the point, again.

Read and watch:

"The Brexiteers withheld what they meant by Brexit." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcdFMQ9Mv0c

Yet, here, " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekK_jcR5xs0 "The Brexit camp have come clean now and said 'We don't like it; we dislike it so much that we want to tear-up Margaret Thatcher's Single European Act; we don't want anything to do with the single market, either'."

Vote Leave cannot both have withheld what they meant regarding the single market and made it clear that they want nothing to do with single market, as Clegg claims. 

Apology accepted.

The question on the ballot paper was limited to that because 'Leave the European Union, the customs union, Euratom, the European Agency for Safety at Work, the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction,  the European GNSS' and myriad other agencies and allied organisations were are also a part of wouldn't fit on the ballot paper, mate.

 As a rule of logic the greater includes the lesser. But there's no need to resort to such generalities, as we'll see. 

It was also not an election where people were standing to be elected representatives so manifestos would have been inappropriate. Stronger In, Vote Leave and the two most senior ministers made it clear, however, that leaving entails leaving the single market. 

It doesn't get any clearer than that. I knew what the vote was about, it seems to be you who couldn't grasp what was at stake, here. 

I understand what a mandate is, you. clearly, do not. Maybe every manifesto and every electoral statement should be printed on the ballot papers, would you be happy, then? Your misue of the term 'mandate' itself is illuminating. "Both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems." Well, no, they aren't as you can only have a mandate once you have been elected. So none of them are 'creating a mandate'. 

As for 'an MP is a mandate', I am not even sure what point you are trying to make, there. Doesn't really make sense. You can argue that an MP has a mandate, not that he/she IS one. Bizarre. 

Though, on your ridiculous logic, clear statements by the MP of what they intend to do won't be enough for a mandate. Not even if their opposing candidates also confirm what the MP will do if returned to office. 

What's needed, an Ed Stone? An affidavit? A declaration in blood?

'People argued for the Norway option' is irrelevant. The three main players - both official campaigns and the Government - made it clear that this was not an option. What Nigel Farage might have said in 2011, when questioned whether the Norway option would be better than full EU membership, is not really relevant, mate. 

Also, May has not called an election for a mandate to leave the single market, so that's a bit of a basic misunderstanding on your part. She called it to strengthen her hand in the negotiations. I don't think it will matter one jot to the EU whether he majority is massive or small, but that is her reason. So stop lying about that. 

You know, even if the three main players in the saga had not all said that leaving the EU entails leaving the single market there would still be an argument for it. People did NOT vote to remain half in the EU. People did not vote to remain a part of the EU's centrepiece. The completion of the single market was always a fundamental aim of the (then) EEC. 

It is illogical even without the explicit statements from the Government and two campaign groups that leaving the EU, somehow, doesn't involve leaving one of (if not the ) most central and important aspects to it. 

But, in light of those statements: 

1. Clegg is a proven liar; 

2. The mandate on the single market is clear. You shouldn't really extrapolate you Mum's misunderstanding and seek to apply it to everyone else in the 17.4m when it was as clear as this. 


Why don't you do yourself a favour and do a bit of Googling to find-out what was actually said at the time people voted?

(05-16-2017, 10:10 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 10:06 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 09:38 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 05:41 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote: There is no mandate for leaving the single market, there is a mandate for leaving the EU. The only mandate is leaving the EU, which contrary to a few ideologues, isn't the single market.

The leave side argued leaving the European single market, and two separate cases of staying in the single market Norway (EEA) and Swiss (EFTA). There was no mandate for leaving with no trade deal and resorting to WTO solely either. These are all ideas.

If remain won and tried to use that as a means for pro federalisation I would be extremely pissed off. That is one scenario of us staying. Another was us keeping the status quo or implementing Cameron's reforms. These are also ideas.

The only thing made clear was that it was the governments role to implement their idea after the referendum.

This coming general election will provide a government mandate on Brexit as there isn't one currently. Labour and the Tories have said no freedom of movement (leaving the single market), Lib Dems have said joining the EEA (staying in the single market). The party with the majority of seats will then have a mandate for their idea of Brexit (let's not beat around the bush. The conservatives will win and will implement their mandate on leaving the single market)

The only person lying is you.

Stronger in, Vote Leave (the official campaign, remember) and the two most senior government figures, the PM and Chancellor, all clearly stated that a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the single market. You must have been too unaware to have noticed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dghdvVbtowM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNnh-KhiLm0

So, mon ami, is anyone's lying here, it's not me. 

Apology accepted.

[Image: ballot-paper.jpg]
I don't have to apologise, I have the a picture of the actual ballot paper that was used.

You, and many other people, want to leave the single market. That does not mean that you, and many other people, voted to leave the single market. My mum voted to leave the EU, she wants to remain in the single market. These were all ideas on what leaving entailed, it isn't what was voted on. It was about what could happen, not will happen.

The single market is not the EU. Leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. The single market is a common market that consists of the 28 (soon to be 27) EU member states along with the European Economic Area, Croatia who is subject to all EU regulation as per their position as a provisional EU member, and Switzerland through a bilateral trade agreement.

As I said above, people argued for leaving the single market particularly the Norway model due to the banking passport but also the Swiss model, people in the government, people in the vote leave campaign.

There is no mandate on leaving the single market. A mandate is a specific thing in politics, it is when authority is granted through a vote. An MP is a mandate, a manifesto is a mandate and a referendum result is a mandate. There was no referendum on leaving the single market. The referendum wasn't split leave the single market with free trade, leave the single market with WTO, Swiss model, Norway model, status quo, Cameron's reforms, full federalisation and Euro.

And as I said, because of there being no mandate, both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems.

This entire thread is you trying to have a go at Nick Clegg because you don't know what the vote was about. You knew what you wanted but that isn't what you voted for. You know why you voted as you did but you don't know what you voted for. Either that or you're lying about Nick Clegg lying because you don't know what a mandate is.

He will call you stupid it's all he's got.

You say this after I have made a lengthy case for my arguments. Did you read them?

(05-17-2017, 09:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Clegg wasn't caught out lying, and I am by no means a supporter of his, but he is far from being a slimy disgusting man.

Early in the referendum campaign, many Brexiteers put forward the possibility of leaving the EU, but have access to the single market in the way Norway did.

As the campaign went on, and it became clear that to many voters the key issue was immigration, and that remaining in the single market meant retaining freedom of movement, there were more voices that said leaving the EU meant having to leave the single market as well - but it was by no meant the only view on offer from the Brexit side.

Watch the two videos in my latest post. He claims that Vote Leave make it clear they want to tear-up the Single European Act (which created the Single Market) then later lies and claims that they withheld what they wanted to do regarding it.

Is it Schrodinger's single market?

(05-17-2017, 11:31 AM)Heath Wrote: YOU ARE ALL STUPID AND I AM RIGHT ARE YOU GOING TO APOLOGISE??

From a man who won't answer which way he voted in the referendum because he knows his protestations and tantrum about me assuming he voted leave will now leave him looking...Well. You know.
Reply
#12
(05-17-2017, 06:00 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 10:06 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 09:38 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 05:41 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote: There is no mandate for leaving the single market, there is a mandate for leaving the EU. The only mandate is leaving the EU, which contrary to a few ideologues, isn't the single market.

The leave side argued leaving the European single market, and two separate cases of staying in the single market Norway (EEA) and Swiss (EFTA). There was no mandate for leaving with no trade deal and resorting to WTO solely either. These are all ideas.

If remain won and tried to use that as a means for pro federalisation I would be extremely pissed off. That is one scenario of us staying. Another was us keeping the status quo or implementing Cameron's reforms. These are also ideas.

The only thing made clear was that it was the governments role to implement their idea after the referendum.

This coming general election will provide a government mandate on Brexit as there isn't one currently. Labour and the Tories have said no freedom of movement (leaving the single market), Lib Dems have said joining the EEA (staying in the single market). The party with the majority of seats will then have a mandate for their idea of Brexit (let's not beat around the bush. The conservatives will win and will implement their mandate on leaving the single market)

The only person lying is you.

Stronger in, Vote Leave (the official campaign, remember) and the two most senior government figures, the PM and Chancellor, all clearly stated that a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the single market. You must have been too unaware to have noticed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dghdvVbtowM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNnh-KhiLm0

So, mon ami, is anyone's lying here, it's not me. 

Apology accepted.

[Image: ballot-paper.jpg]
I don't have to apologise, I have the a picture of the actual ballot paper that was used.

You, and many other people, want to leave the single market. That does not mean that you, and many other people, voted to leave the single market. My mum voted to leave the EU, she wants to remain in the single market. These were all ideas on what leaving entailed, it isn't what was voted on. It was about what could happen, not will happen.

The single market is not the EU. Leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. The single market is a common market that consists of the 28 (soon to be 27) EU member states along with the European Economic Area, Croatia who is subject to all EU regulation as per their position as a provisional EU member, and Switzerland through a bilateral trade agreement.

As I said above, people argued for leaving the single market particularly the Norway model due to the banking passport but also the Swiss model, people in the government, people in the vote leave campaign.

There is no mandate on leaving the single market. A mandate is a specific thing in politics, it is when authority is granted through a vote. An MP is a mandate, a manifesto is a mandate and a referendum result is a mandate. There was no referendum on leaving the single market. The referendum wasn't split leave the single market with free trade, leave the single market with WTO, Swiss model, Norway model, status quo, Cameron's reforms, full federalisation and Euro.

And as I said, because of there being no mandate, both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems.

This entire thread is you trying to have a go at Nick Clegg because you don't know what the vote was about. You knew what you wanted but that isn't what you voted for. You know why you voted as you did but you don't know what you voted for. Either that or you're lying about Nick Clegg lying because you don't know what a mandate is.

You have missed the point, again.

Read and watch:

"The Brexiteers withheld what they meant by Brexit." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcdFMQ9Mv0c

Yet, here, " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekK_jcR5xs0 "The Brexit camp have come clean now and said 'We don't like it; we dislike it so much that we want to tear-up Margaret Thatcher's Single European Act; we don't want anything to do with the single market, either'."

Vote Leave cannot both have withheld what they meant regarding the single market and made it clear that they want nothing to do with single market, as Clegg claims. 

Apology accepted.

The question on the ballot paper was limited to that because 'Leave the European Union, the customs union, Euratom, the European Agency for Safety at Work, the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction,  the European GNSS' and myriad other agencies and allied organisations were are also a part of wouldn't fit on the ballot paper, mate.

 As a rule of logic the greater includes the lesser. But there's no need to resort to such generalities, as we'll see. 

It was also not an election where people were standing to be elected representatives so manifestos would have been inappropriate. Stronger In, Vote Leave and the two most senior ministers made it clear, however, that leaving entails leaving the single market. 

It doesn't get any clearer than that. I knew what the vote was about, it seems to be you who couldn't grasp what was at stake, here. 

I understand what a mandate is, you. clearly, do not. Maybe every manifesto and every electoral statement should be printed on the ballot papers, would you be happy, then? Your misue of the term 'mandate' itself is illuminating. "Both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems." Well, no, they aren't as you can only have a mandate once you have been elected. So none of them are 'creating a mandate'. 

As for 'an MP is a mandate', I am not even sure what point you are trying to make, there. Doesn't really make sense. You can argue that an MP has a mandate, not that he/she IS one. Bizarre. 

Though, on your ridiculous logic, clear statements by the MP of what they intend to do won't be enough for a mandate. Not even if their opposing candidates also confirm what the MP will do if returned to office. 

What's needed, an Ed Stone? An affidavit? A declaration in blood?

'People argued for the Norway option' is irrelevant. The three main players - both official campaigns and the Government - made it clear that this was not an option. What Nigel Farage might have said in 2011, when questioned whether the Norway option would be better than full EU membership, is not really relevant, mate. 

Also, May has not called an election for a mandate to leave the single market, so that's a bit of a basic misunderstanding on your part. She called it to strengthen her hand in the negotiations. I don't think it will matter one jot to the EU whether he majority is massive or small, but that is her reason. So stop lying about that. 

You know, even if the three main players in the saga had not all said that leaving the EU entails leaving the single market there would still be an argument for it. People did NOT vote to remain half in the EU. People did not vote to remain a part of the EU's centrepiece. The completion of the single market was always a fundamental aim of the (then) EEC. 

It is illogical even without the explicit statements from the Government and two campaign groups that leaving the EU, somehow, doesn't involve leaving one of (if not the ) most central and important aspects to it. 

But, in light of those statements: 

1. Clegg is a proven liar; 

2. The mandate on the single market is clear. You shouldn't really extrapolate you Mum's misunderstanding and seek to apply it to everyone else in the 17.4m when it was as clear as this. 


Why don't you do yourself a favour and do a bit of Googling to find-out what was actually said at the time people voted?

I don't think you can say I missed the point when you yourself have so quite obviously missed the point.

I don't need to read and watch, I know what Cameron said. That doesn't A) disregard the instances of leave campaigners within the official organisation and otherwise proposing the aforementioned Norway and Swiss model and B) have any relevance to what mandate was provided, as we are talking in clear context of a mandate as per Nick Clegg's words, which is a specific thing in politics pertaining to a vote. The vote was for leaving the EU, as the ballot paper shows. The single market is not the EU and we didn't have a referendum on it. Leaving the EU doesn't mean leaving the single market due to the multiple layers of it that result in it being one of two trade organisations and a bilateral trade agreement in Switzerland's case.

Vote leave did advertise remaining in the single market, as a ploy to retain the banking passport. They advertised leaving it as well in order to remove freedom of immigration. These were all ideas pertaining to how we go about leaving.

So therefore, I have no need to apologise. So I will not.

The ballot paper was written like that as that was the organisation that we were voting for. All the other caveats you mentioned are a component of the EU, so it would go along with it. The EU is a component of the single market, so it would not. An analogy would be a car. The single market is the car, the EU is the engine. If you were a piston, crankshaft or spark plug you are part of the engine. If you wanted to remove the engine you would have to get rid of those things as well. You don't have to get rid of the car though as that is not part of the engine. Hence the vote leave campaign arguing the EEA or EFTA as options to leave the EU.

If you truly voted to leave the single market, you didn't know what the vote was about. It was written on the ballot paper. It doesn't say "single market", it says "European Union".

You don't know what a mandate is. It is authority granted by an electorate. The electorate grants the authority, through a manifesto, representative (MP) or referendum. You can create a mandate through various electorates, whether that be a party base or the voting populous. Jeremy Corbyn has a mandate, Tim Farron has a mandate, Theresa May has a mandate. The position of the manifestos is agreed unilaterally so a mandate is created for the party to pursue, this mandate is then voted on again in this case for the direction of the country.

An MP is a mandate in the sense that they are granted authority to represent their constituents. They are the result. There are various types of mandates, a manifesto or referendum result would be called a free mandate as there is only one result, whereas an MP would be an imperative mandate as there are over 600. Honestly I think it is really interesting and the difference is one of the factors of the French revolution, you should read up on the 1789 French assembly.

The next point is sorted by the above statement with the difference between a free and imperative mandate. A mandate doesn't pertain the entire electorate but the people who voted for them. If you have two Conservative MPs, both elected on the manifesto commitment to build 1 new police station, but each was voted on them saying they will get it built in their own constituency, they both have a mandate to pursue it being built there.

Nothing is needed, why even bring that up? A mandate is just a reason, it's not a guarantee.

People arguing for the Norway option is wholly relevant. Neither side made it clear at all. I am solely referring to responses during the campaign itself, not what the hypocritical child said in 2011. It was represented as an idea on how we leave the EU, particularly in response to the banking passport, common travel area and a trade deal. There was also on whether we pursue a trade deal or go WTO, or remain part of the customs union. These are all ideas. I keep saying that word for a reason. It isn't what was voted on but reasons to vote for that. I am not arguing that a majority of people who voted leave don't freedom of movement, nor is Clegg. The only mandate is for leaving the EU, nothing was voted on regards to single market membership.

As for your point about May calling it to provide a mandate? I haven't claimed as such. She did it for multiple reasons, the situation of the opposition and the slimness of majority being key reasons. Her being able to say this is the mandate for leaving the EU based on the electorate is a side effect.

As I keep saying to you, the three key players said a lot of shit pertaining to all angles of leaving from position of negotiation, how to go about leaving, priorities, red flags, timescales. All bases were covered with people on both sides contradicting each other. It doesn't matter if the EU want a single market, that doesn't make it the single market. Your twisted vision that they are one and the same is ridiculous. You can have be in the single market and not the EU. The single market being part of the EEC to create a single market is irrelevant, the role of the EFTA is the same and they are both parts of the same thing. We left one to join the other and were still in the same single market.

As I keep bloody saying, the leave campaign explicitly argued the Norway and Swiss model, as well as leaving the single market. You saying well this guy said that doesn't mean that they didn't say it during the campaign. That isn't how this works.

Answer to 1. Name me one politician who isn't a liar. There is a disgraced liar in the previous May led cabinet for fucks sakes. In this case though, Clegg isn't lying. A mandate isn't the same thing as "most of the people who voted this way wanted us to do this with the vote".

And  as for 2. You are doing the same thing you accuse me of. My mum knew what she voted for as it was written on the bloody ballot paper, it was the name of the referendum. And you are extrapolating what the vote entails purely because of what you want it to mean, not what it is.

Why don't you do yourself a favour and do a bit of Googling to find-out what was actually said at the time people voted?
Reply
#13
(05-17-2017, 07:35 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-17-2017, 06:00 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 10:06 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 09:38 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 05:41 PM)BoringBaggie Wrote: There is no mandate for leaving the single market, there is a mandate for leaving the EU. The only mandate is leaving the EU, which contrary to a few ideologues, isn't the single market.

The leave side argued leaving the European single market, and two separate cases of staying in the single market Norway (EEA) and Swiss (EFTA). There was no mandate for leaving with no trade deal and resorting to WTO solely either. These are all ideas.

If remain won and tried to use that as a means for pro federalisation I would be extremely pissed off. That is one scenario of us staying. Another was us keeping the status quo or implementing Cameron's reforms. These are also ideas.

The only thing made clear was that it was the governments role to implement their idea after the referendum.

This coming general election will provide a government mandate on Brexit as there isn't one currently. Labour and the Tories have said no freedom of movement (leaving the single market), Lib Dems have said joining the EEA (staying in the single market). The party with the majority of seats will then have a mandate for their idea of Brexit (let's not beat around the bush. The conservatives will win and will implement their mandate on leaving the single market)

The only person lying is you.

Stronger in, Vote Leave (the official campaign, remember) and the two most senior government figures, the PM and Chancellor, all clearly stated that a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the single market. You must have been too unaware to have noticed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dghdvVbtowM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNnh-KhiLm0

So, mon ami, is anyone's lying here, it's not me. 

Apology accepted.

[Image: ballot-paper.jpg]
I don't have to apologise, I have the a picture of the actual ballot paper that was used.

You, and many other people, want to leave the single market. That does not mean that you, and many other people, voted to leave the single market. My mum voted to leave the EU, she wants to remain in the single market. These were all ideas on what leaving entailed, it isn't what was voted on. It was about what could happen, not will happen.

The single market is not the EU. Leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. The single market is a common market that consists of the 28 (soon to be 27) EU member states along with the European Economic Area, Croatia who is subject to all EU regulation as per their position as a provisional EU member, and Switzerland through a bilateral trade agreement.

As I said above, people argued for leaving the single market particularly the Norway model due to the banking passport but also the Swiss model, people in the government, people in the vote leave campaign.

There is no mandate on leaving the single market. A mandate is a specific thing in politics, it is when authority is granted through a vote. An MP is a mandate, a manifesto is a mandate and a referendum result is a mandate. There was no referendum on leaving the single market. The referendum wasn't split leave the single market with free trade, leave the single market with WTO, Swiss model, Norway model, status quo, Cameron's reforms, full federalisation and Euro.

And as I said, because of there being no mandate, both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems.

This entire thread is you trying to have a go at Nick Clegg because you don't know what the vote was about. You knew what you wanted but that isn't what you voted for. You know why you voted as you did but you don't know what you voted for. Either that or you're lying about Nick Clegg lying because you don't know what a mandate is.

You have missed the point, again.

Read and watch:

"The Brexiteers withheld what they meant by Brexit." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcdFMQ9Mv0c

Yet, here, " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekK_jcR5xs0 "The Brexit camp have come clean now and said 'We don't like it; we dislike it so much that we want to tear-up Margaret Thatcher's Single European Act; we don't want anything to do with the single market, either'."

Vote Leave cannot both have withheld what they meant regarding the single market and made it clear that they want nothing to do with single market, as Clegg claims. 

Apology accepted.

The question on the ballot paper was limited to that because 'Leave the European Union, the customs union, Euratom, the European Agency for Safety at Work, the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction,  the European GNSS' and myriad other agencies and allied organisations were are also a part of wouldn't fit on the ballot paper, mate.

 As a rule of logic the greater includes the lesser. But there's no need to resort to such generalities, as we'll see. 

It was also not an election where people were standing to be elected representatives so manifestos would have been inappropriate. Stronger In, Vote Leave and the two most senior ministers made it clear, however, that leaving entails leaving the single market. 

It doesn't get any clearer than that. I knew what the vote was about, it seems to be you who couldn't grasp what was at stake, here. 

I understand what a mandate is, you. clearly, do not. Maybe every manifesto and every electoral statement should be printed on the ballot papers, would you be happy, then? Your misuse of the term 'mandate' itself is illuminating. "Both Labour and the Conservatives are creating one through their manifestos as are the Lib Dems." Well, no, they aren't as you can only have a mandate once you have been elected. So none of them are 'creating a mandate'. 

As for 'an MP is a mandate', I am not even sure what point you are trying to make, there. Doesn't really make sense. You can argue that an MP has a mandate, not that he/she IS one. Bizarre. 

Though, on your ridiculous logic, clear statements by the MP of what they intend to do won't be enough for a mandate. Not even if their opposing candidates also confirm what the MP will do if returned to office. 

What's needed, an Ed Stone? An affidavit? A declaration in blood?

'People argued for the Norway option' is irrelevant. The three main players - both official campaigns and the Government - made it clear that this was not an option. What Nigel Farage might have said in 2011, when questioned whether the Norway option would be better than full EU membership, is not really relevant, mate. 

Also, May has not called an election for a mandate to leave the single market, so that's a bit of a basic misunderstanding on your part. She called it to strengthen her hand in the negotiations. I don't think it will matter one jot to the EU whether he majority is massive or small, but that is her reason. So stop lying about that. 

You know, even if the three main players in the saga had not all said that leaving the EU entails leaving the single market there would still be an argument for it. People did NOT vote to remain half in the EU. People did not vote to remain a part of the EU's centrepiece. The completion of the single market was always a fundamental aim of the (then) EEC. 

It is illogical even without the explicit statements from the Government and two campaign groups that leaving the EU, somehow, doesn't involve leaving one of (if not the ) most central and important aspects to it. 

But, in light of those statements: 

1. Clegg is a proven liar; 

2. The mandate on the single market is clear. You shouldn't really extrapolate you Mum's misunderstanding and seek to apply it to everyone else in the 17.4m when it was as clear as this. 


Why don't you do yourself a favour and do a bit of Googling to find-out what was actually said at the time people voted?

I don't think you can say I missed the point when you yourself have so quite obviously missed the point.

I don't need to read and watch, I know what Cameron said. That doesn't A) disregard the instances of leave campaigners within the official organisation and otherwise proposing the aforementioned Norway and Swiss model and B) have any relevance to what mandate was provided, as we are talking in clear context of a mandate as per Nick Clegg's words, which is a specific thing in politics pertaining to a vote. The vote was for leaving the EU, as the ballot paper shows. The single market is not the EU and we didn't have a referendum on it. Leaving the EU doesn't mean leaving the single market due to the multiple layers of it that result in it being one of two trade organisations and a bilateral trade agreement in Switzerland's case.

Vote leave did advertise remaining in the single market, as a ploy to retain the banking passport. They advertised leaving it as well in order to remove freedom of immigration. These were all ideas pertaining to how we go about leaving.

So therefore, I have no need to apologise. So I will not.

The ballot paper was written like that as that was the organisation that we were voting for. All the other caveats you mentioned are a component of the EU, so it would go along with it. The EU is a component of the single market, so it would not. An analogy would be a car. The single market is the car, the EU is the engine. If you were a piston, crankshaft or spark plug you are part of the engine. If you wanted to remove the engine you would have to get rid of those things as well. You don't have to get rid of the car though as that is not part of the engine. Hence the vote leave campaign arguing the EEA or EFTA as options to leave the EU.

If you truly voted to leave the single market, you didn't know what the vote was about. It was written on the ballot paper. It doesn't say "single market", it says "European Union".

You don't know what a mandate is. It is authority granted by an electorate. The electorate grants the authority, through a manifesto, representative (MP) or referendum. You can create a mandate through various electorates, whether that be a party base or the voting populous. Jeremy Corbyn has a mandate, Tim Farron has a mandate, Theresa May has a mandate. The position of the manifestos is agreed unilaterally so a mandate is created for the party to pursue, this mandate is then voted on again in this case for the direction of the country.

An MP is a mandate in the sense that they are granted authority to represent their constituents. They are the result. There are various types of mandates, a manifesto or referendum result would be called a free mandate as there is only one result, whereas an MP would be an imperative mandate as there are over 600. Honestly I think it is really interesting and the difference is one of the factors of the French revolution, you should read up on the 1789 French assembly.

The next point is sorted by the above statement with the difference between a free and imperative mandate. A mandate doesn't pertain the entire electorate but the people who voted for them. If you have two Conservative MPs, both elected on the manifesto commitment to build 1 new police station, but each was voted on them saying they will get it built in their own constituency, they both have a mandate to pursue it being built there.

Nothing is needed, why even bring that up? A mandate is just a reason, it's not a guarantee.

People arguing for the Norway option is wholly relevant. Neither side made it clear at all. I am solely referring to responses during the campaign itself, not what the hypocritical child said in 2011. It was represented as an idea on how we leave the EU, particularly in response to the banking passport, common travel area and a trade deal. There was also on whether we pursue a trade deal or go WTO, or remain part of the customs union. These are all ideas. I keep saying that word for a reason. It isn't what was voted on but reasons to vote for that. I am not arguing that a majority of people who voted leave don't freedom of movement, nor is Clegg. The only mandate is for leaving the EU, nothing was voted on regards to single market membership.

As for your point about May calling it to provide a mandate? I haven't claimed as such. She did it for multiple reasons, the situation of the opposition and the slimness of majority being key reasons. Her being able to say this is the mandate for leaving the EU based on the electorate is a side effect.

As I keep saying to you, the three key players said a lot of shit pertaining to all angles of leaving from position of negotiation, how to go about leaving, priorities, red flags, timescales. All bases were covered with people on both sides contradicting each other. It doesn't matter if the EU want a single market, that doesn't make it the single market. Your twisted vision that they are one and the same is ridiculous. You can have be in the single market and not the EU. The single market being part of the EEC to create a single market is irrelevant, the role of the EFTA is the same and they are both parts of the same thing. We left one to join the other and were still in the same single market.

As I keep bloody saying, the leave campaign explicitly argued the Norway and Swiss model, as well as leaving the single market. You saying well this guy said that doesn't mean that they didn't say it during the campaign. That isn't how this works.

Answer to 1. Name me one politician who isn't a liar. There is a disgraced liar in the previous May led cabinet for fucks sakes. In this case though, Clegg isn't lying. A mandate isn't the same thing as "most of the people who voted this way wanted us to do this with the vote".

And  as for 2. You are doing the same thing you accuse me of. My mum knew what she voted for as it was written on the bloody ballot paper, it was the name of the referendum. And you are extrapolating what the vote entails purely because of what you want it to mean, not what it is.

Why don't you do yourself a favour and do a bit of Googling to find-out what was actually said at the time people voted?

You said that I am 'lying about Nick Clegg'. I have shows you claiming two contradictory things. Please do watch the two video of Clegg claiming 2 contradictory things. Be big enough to apologise, eh?

"The Brexiteers withheld what they meant by Brexit." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcdFMQ9Mv0c

Yet, here, " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekK_jcR5xs0 "The Brexit camp have come clean now and said 'We don't like it; we dislike it so much that we want to tear-up Margaret Thatcher's Single European Act; we don't want anything to do with the single market, either'."



1. Show me where anyone involved in the official campaign supported the EEA/EFTA route in 2016. I don't think they did. As I said, what Farage (not part of the official campaign) said in 2011 is irrelevant. A bald assertion is not enough

2. Show me where Vote Leave 'advertised staying in the single market'. Again, a bald assertion is not enough

3. The EU is not a component of the single market. Did you REALLY say that? Is it a typo? The single market is a component of the EU which is opened-up to non-EU members via EEA/EFTA. Your analogy fails, therefore

4. I never said that the EU and single market are the same. I said that the single market is seen as a key part of the EU and that the completion of the single market seen as a key aim of the (then) EEC. The Spaak Report may even have discussed it. When Ihave listed all the other EU agencies, like in my post above, it is obvious that I don't think that the EU is limited to the single market. 

The greater (the EU) includes the lesser (the single market) particularly when the lesser is integral to the greater, however.

You are either lying and deliberately misrepresenting me or didn't comprehend what I said. If it's the former it's pretty pathetic. If it is the latter you should really re-read what I wrote: I merely called it the 'centrepiece'

EVEN IF there was no mandate to leave via unequivocal statements (which there is) the leave vote would very arguably still have provided a mandate for leaving the single market. I have already explained why it didn't say explicitly on the ballot paper about leaving the single market. It wouldn't fit. On your logic, there would be no mandate for remaining in the single market if we had voted to remain. After all, not mentioned on the ballot paper, eh?

On your 'logic' there is no mandate to leave the customs union or any other facet of EU membership as: i) None of this was mentioned on the ballot paper; ii) You don't have to be in the EU to be a part of some facets of EU membership (like the customs union with Turkey, Erasmus, etc).

This is palpably absurd.

5. It's not ME who doesn't know what a mandate is, as evidenced by your hilariously nonsensical claim that 'an MP is a mandate'. Illogical and wrong. An MP HAS a mandate. He/she is not one themself. French history doesn't change that.

6. To claim 'No side made it clear at all' is ridiculous. How many times do I have to say that the three main players in the referendum made it clear? Even Nick Clegg agrees that it was made clear before he decided to lie and say it wasn't. I'll send some links, again, even though you appear to be so (wrongly) convinced in your accuracy, you won't watch them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dghdvVbtowM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNnh-KhiLm0 

What Vote Leave said: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3...2market%22


Stronger In implictly accepted that leaving means leaving the single market http://www.strongerin.co.uk/economic_rea...MK6QoYA.97 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3...2market%22

 So please stop with the 'not made clear' argument because it's a lie. 

7. You also claim that, "All bases were covered with people on both sides contradicting each other." So why haven't you been able to find evidence for your claim?

8. " It doesn't matter if the EU want a single market, that doesn't make it the single market. Your twisted vision that they are one and the same is ridiculous." Covered above. Either a lie from you or a woefully wrong comprehension of my clear explanation

9. "The single market being part of the EEC to create a single market is irrelevant, the role of the EFTA is the same and they are both parts of the same thing." Again, your point doesn't even make sense. I've no idea what you are trying to say. But, no, EFTA and the EU are not members of the single market. I think you mean that members of the EU and members of EFTA are members of the single market.

Calling it the EEC in the present context is also instructive as being as it hasn't been called that since 1993. It became the European Community when it became subsumed into the new EU created by the Maastricht Treaty.

10 "Answer to 1. Name me one politician who isn't a liar. There is a disgraced liar in the previous May led cabinet for fucks sakes. In this case though, Clegg isn't lying. A mandate isn't the same thing as "most of the people who voted this way wanted us to do this with the vote". 

Saying 'Clegg isn't a liar' with no further argument or evidence is worthless. Clegg IS a liar andI have no idea how you can argue differently when I have quoted his contradictory words. I would imagine you read them. So what don't you grasp? How can Vote Leave h both have withheld whether leaving the EU means leaving the single market and have made it clear that leaving means  having nothing to do with it?

Again, is it Scrodinger's single market?

11. "And  as for 2. You are doing the same thing you accuse me of. My mum knew what she voted for as it was written on the bloody ballot paper, it was the name of the referendum. And you are extrapolating what the vote entails purely because of what you want it to mean, not what it is."

Your Mum clearly didn't if she thought it wasn't also about single market membership. I have the statements - unequivocal - from the 3 main players to support my assertion. You have your Mum's misunderstanding that it didn't mean leaving the single market to support yours.

I advised you to Google what the people were saying at the time.You refused for reasons only known to you, and you look ridiculous as a result. So I did it for you, above at point 6.

The corollary of your argument that 'there is no mandate to leave the single market because it wasn't on the ballot paper' is that, if we voted to remain, there would have been no mandate to remain in the single market.

If the UK HAD voted to leave, do you think that the issue of single market membership would have been up in the air, because of this 'not on the ballot paper' idiotic bullshit? No. The mandate (to remain in it) would have been clear. Just like it isn't when we voted to leave.

Your 'not on the ballot paper' is completely irrelevant in light of the the clear statements of what is involved in a leave vote. Your mother's misunderstanding doesn't change that.

I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who is verifiably wrong, but who is too insecure to admit it. So I'll leave it there, with the ample evidence for my claims and none for yours. 

Says it all, really.
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#14
Waaaaahhhhhh. I lose so i'm claiming i dont want to argue anymore as you are beneath me. Waaaaahhhhhhhh.
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#15
(05-17-2017, 10:00 PM)Heath Wrote: Waaaaahhhhhh. I lose so i'm claiming i dont want to argue anymore as you are beneath me. Waaaaahhhhhhhh.

I didn't lose, he did. Anyone who has read and understands the arguments raised will realise that quite easily.

 He said Clegg hadn't lied, I have proved that he has with Clegg's own words, with sources showing him lying.

He said it wasn't clear that leaving the EU entailed leaving the single market, I have proved that it was clearly explained, with sources.

All he had to back his arguments was the misconstruction/misrepresentation/distortion of what I said, the positing of a load of assertions with no evidence and his Mum's misunderstanding.

To say there was no mandate because 'it wasn't on the ballot paper' is completely ridiculous. Unless the Tory manifesto is on my ballot paper when I vote on 8th June I am not giving them a mandate.

I am still laughing at his 'an MP is a mandate' as well.

You are too cowardly to answer which way you voted, though, because you know your tantrum about my assuming you voted leave will leave you looking even more ridiculous.

As for 'waaaaaaaaaahhhh', you are the one who follows me around the board, taking snipes whilst not being up to debating what I have actually typed. This despite you agreeing to call a truce on the old board before it went kaput when I asked you via PM because it must be tedious for others to have to plough through, constantly.

Oh, well.

Integrity obviously doesn't hold much appeal to you. What a lovely bloke you are.

If every you feel brave enough to answer the question as to which way you voted, let me know. Until then, I've made my points and arguments clear here so won't revisit this thread.
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#16
To be fair, if you didn't know that "leaving the EU" meant "leaving the EU & all its institutions" then you can't really have been paying attention. I bet none of you listened to me put that very point to Bev Neilson on the Radio WM debate did you? Exactly.

That's not a problem, until of course you raise it afterwards. Clegg changed his argument under questioning / evidence the other day - it moved from "No one told us that leave meant leaving the single market" (which is a barefaced lie) to "Not everyone watches political interviews" - which is fair enough.

Like so many things in life just an issue of communication. If you'd have been on the Remain side you would have made damn sure people knew the implications of leaving the EU. So you can blame the disingenuous Clegg & the Remain campaign for that too.

Or, maybe 52%ish did know and voted accordingly.......
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#17
(05-18-2017, 12:45 PM)Protheroe Wrote: To be fair, if you didn't know that "leaving the EU" meant "leaving the EU & all its institutions" then you can't really have been paying attention. I bet none of you listened to me put that very point to Bev Neilson on the Radio WM debate did you? Exactly.

That's not a problem, until of course you raise it afterwards. Clegg changed his argument under questioning / evidence the other day - it moved from "No one told us that leave meant leaving the single market" (which is a barefaced lie) to "Not everyone watches political interviews"  - which is fair enough.

Like so many things in life just an issue of communication. If you'd have been on the Remain side you would have made damn sure people knew the implications of leaving the EU. So you can blame the disingenuous Clegg & the Remain campaign for that too.

Or, maybe 52%ish did know and voted accordingly.......


I'm not so sure this is true Proth. Many Brexiteers did point out that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market, especially once it was established that the Norway option meant accepting freedom of movement.

But there were still leavers who believed we could remain in the single market even if we left the EU, which in theory we could. I believe arch EU critic Daniel Hannon was one who believed this.
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#18
(05-18-2017, 03:27 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: But there were still leavers who believed we could remain in the single market even if we left the EU, which in theory we could. I believe arch EU critic Daniel Hannon was one who believed this.

I'm sure there were, but they were in a minority. Rather like the fools who voted Remain in the vain hope that "we" could somehow reform the EU, or those (including people on here) who voted for the "status quo" which wasn't on the ballot paper either.
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#19
(05-19-2017, 10:51 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 03:27 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: But there were still leavers who believed we could remain in the single market even if we left the EU, which in theory we could. I believe arch EU critic Daniel Hannon was one who believed this.

I'm sure there were, but they were in a minority. Rather like the fools who voted Remain in the vain hope that "we" could somehow reform the EU, or those (including people on here) who voted for the "status quo" which wasn't on the ballot paper either.

Yes on that ballot paper it says "Remain a member of the European Union until it becomes the United States of Europe, tough, unlucky you're locked in now suckers". FFS.
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#20
I voted for the least financial pain for my familiy. You can and I'm sure the two usual suspects will say the EU will fail so that argument is flawed. However that is complete guesswork like so much of this Brexit bullshit, it's all a leap of faith. Btw I had zero problem becoming more integrated into Europe and a United States of Europe didn't and doesn't make me run for the hills. The only problem is EU reform and making it properly democratic but I knew that before I voted to remain because for my family I surmised it was the "least worse" option.
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