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The Corbyn Effect
#11
(05-08-2017, 12:44 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(05-08-2017, 11:46 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Protheroe Wrote: British elections are won from the centre. I expect wails in response to this statement - but the narrative that May leads an extreme far right government from the left shows how far left the left has shifted. Cameron and May have spent the last two years spreading themselves all over the centre ground like peanut butter - hell the high spending - high tax Tories have even stolen the incoherent Energy Price Cap policy. They've moved further away from classical liberal economics and are far more socially interventionist.

Tactically it's a great way to win elections, as the ONLY way a party in opposition can distinguish itself is with clear blue water. The Lib Dems have Brexit, the Labour party faction in control have a soft Trotskyism which is about as palatable as uncooked chicken.

I don't know where Labour goes from here. I suspect it may be oblivion. I was laughed at for predicting they'd scrape 25% under Corbyn in a GE, it  seems that maybe I was over optimistic.

I suspect a new party may arise, as there's clearly no future for the old one.

(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Zoltanger Wrote: I increasingly think that Keir Starmer could be the man.

Have you stayed awake long enough to hear him finish a sentence?

I think this analysis is wrong.

One thing that has surprised me about Corbyn's leadership, how little in reality party policy has shifted to the left, and how Social Demcratic, rather than Marxist their economic policy is. Compare what Labour is proposing now, to what Atlee's Government did, there is a distinct rightwards shift.

I was referring to 'the narrative'. There's been a shift towards markets (even in China) because markets are irrefutably good for humanity. Even a Marxist wouldn't deny the evidence staring them in the face. Labour's narrative is as left as it was in 1983, its membership and foot soldiers are further to the left - when the Manifesto comes out I'll compare and contrast. There'll be a "National Invesment Bank", nailed on.

Good for humanity? They are good for the artifice of putting value onto things. Humanity moves on by the bravery of individuals standing up for others against those in power. You do see the world oddly Proth.
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#12
(05-08-2017, 02:09 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-08-2017, 12:44 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(05-08-2017, 11:46 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Protheroe Wrote: British elections are won from the centre. I expect wails in response to this statement - but the narrative that May leads an extreme far right government from the left shows how far left the left has shifted. Cameron and May have spent the last two years spreading themselves all over the centre ground like peanut butter - hell the high spending - high tax Tories have even stolen the incoherent Energy Price Cap policy. They've moved further away from classical liberal economics and are far more socially interventionist.

Tactically it's a great way to win elections, as the ONLY way a party in opposition can distinguish itself is with clear blue water. The Lib Dems have Brexit, the Labour party faction in control have a soft Trotskyism which is about as palatable as uncooked chicken.

I don't know where Labour goes from here. I suspect it may be oblivion. I was laughed at for predicting they'd scrape 25% under Corbyn in a GE, it  seems that maybe I was over optimistic.

I suspect a new party may arise, as there's clearly no future for the old one.

(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Zoltanger Wrote: I increasingly think that Keir Starmer could be the man.

Have you stayed awake long enough to hear him finish a sentence?

I think this analysis is wrong.

One thing that has surprised me about Corbyn's leadership, how little in reality party policy has shifted to the left, and how Social Demcratic, rather than Marxist their economic policy is. Compare what Labour is proposing now, to what Atlee's Government did, there is a distinct rightwards shift.

I was referring to 'the narrative'. There's been a shift towards markets (even in China) because markets are irrefutably good for humanity. Even a Marxist wouldn't deny the evidence staring them in the face. Labour's narrative is as left as it was in 1983, its membership and foot soldiers are further to the left - when the Manifesto comes out I'll compare and contrast. There'll be a "National Invesment Bank", nailed on.

Good for humanity? They are good for the artifice of putting value onto things. Humanity moves on by the bravery of individuals standing up for others against those in power. You do see the world oddly Proth.

Message posted via a device brought into existence due to capitalism's rewarding of innovation. No surprise, he's missed that little fact.
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#13
(05-08-2017, 02:09 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Good for humanity? They are good for the artifice of putting value onto things. Humanity moves on by the bravery of individuals standing up for others against those in power. You do see the world oddly Proth.

I see the world oddly? FFS <guffaws>

The best way humanity moves on is by freeing people to indulge in competitive self interest. That's how markets work. That's how billions of people worldwide are no longer in absolute poverty. Not by state intervention, by good, old fashioned freedom.

The brave individuals in Venezuela are currently standing up against the Socialist jackboot. What for? Freedom, and markets.

Look at the most succesful / happy countries in the world. They all have liberal democracy and all have markets (you can't have one without the other). Look at the least succesful / least happy- no freedom, no property rights, no markets.
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#14
(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Protheroe Wrote: British elections are won from the centre. I expect wails in response to this statement - but the narrative that May leads an extreme far right government from the left shows how far left the left has shifted. Cameron and May have spent the last two years spreading themselves all over the centre ground like peanut butter - hell the high spending - high tax Tories have even stolen the incoherent Energy Price Cap policy. They've moved further away from classical liberal economics and are far more socially interventionist.

Tactically it's a great way to win elections, as the ONLY way a party in opposition can distinguish itself is with clear blue water. The Lib Dems have Brexit, the Labour party faction in control have a soft Trotskyism which is about as palatable as uncooked chicken.

I don't know where Labour goes from here. I suspect it may be oblivion. I was laughed at for predicting they'd scrape 25% under Corbyn in a GE, it  seems that maybe I was over optimistic.

I suspect a new party may arise, as there's clearly no future for the old one.

(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Zoltanger Wrote: I increasingly think that Keir Starmer could be the man.

Have you stayed awake long enough to hear him finish a sentence?

As a Lib Dem party member I despair how pathetic the party have been considering Labour seem intent on imploding. I didn't want Farron as leader and so far he has done nothing to dissuade me of that notion. I liked Clegg and felt he was unfairly blamed after the coalition government.
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#15
(05-12-2017, 07:57 AM)Birdman1811 Wrote:
(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Protheroe Wrote: British elections are won from the centre. I expect wails in response to this statement - but the narrative that May leads an extreme far right government from the left shows how far left the left has shifted. Cameron and May have spent the last two years spreading themselves all over the centre ground like peanut butter - hell the high spending - high tax Tories have even stolen the incoherent Energy Price Cap policy. They've moved further away from classical liberal economics and are far more socially interventionist.

Tactically it's a great way to win elections, as the ONLY way a party in opposition can distinguish itself is with clear blue water. The Lib Dems have Brexit, the Labour party faction in control have a soft Trotskyism which is about as palatable as uncooked chicken.

I don't know where Labour goes from here. I suspect it may be oblivion. I was laughed at for predicting they'd scrape 25% under Corbyn in a GE, it  seems that maybe I was over optimistic.

I suspect a new party may arise, as there's clearly no future for the old one.

(05-03-2017, 07:41 PM)Zoltanger Wrote: I increasingly think that Keir Starmer could be the man.

Have you stayed awake long enough to hear him finish a sentence?

As a Lib Dem party member I despair how pathetic the party have been considering Labour seem intent on imploding. I didn't want Farron as leader and so far he has done nothing to dissuade me of that notion. I liked Clegg and felt he was unfairly blamed after the coalition government.

The issue was that party rules dictate the leader must be a sitting MP, all the good leadership types were voted out. Only two of 8 opted to stand and both Farron and Lamb, despite both being stand up people, have little in terms of leadership qualities, little personality and charisma and are very quiet. It essentially became Orange Book vs new direction, some members thought the Orange Book caused the collapse and others thought it was Clegg being toxic to the electorate. That is the only reason we have Farron. Hopefully after the next election we have around 20 to 25 MPs and Farron stands down for someone more capable.

Clegg was a fantastic leader from the liberal side, and Charles Kennedy was a fantastic leader from the social democrat side. We don't have anyone of that ilk in either wing (except Clegg but I still think he's toxic).
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#16
Clegg was/is a master of talking for ages without saying anything, he had other politicos nodding glaze eyed in agreement in 2010 and then had one decision to make over tuition fees and proved he was a sham and left the liberals at their weakest for nearly a century.
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#17
(05-12-2017, 10:55 AM)Great Bridge Wrote: Clegg was/is a master of talking for ages without saying anything, he had other politicos nodding glaze eyed in agreement in 2010 and then had one decision to make over tuition fees and proved he was a sham and left the liberals at their weakest for nearly a century.

Junior coalition partner, can't pass everything especially when it is at odds with the senior coalition partner. Managed to get through the Green Investment Bank, cuts to income tax, gay marriage, increasing the personal tax allowance, pension triple lock, increasing the pupil premiums, shared parental leave, the first net increase in social housing since the 80s, scrapped ID card implementation, raising the income tax threshold, implemented the Vickers report on banking, funding infrastructure upgrades for high speed internet, and stopping snooping laws while in coalition.

With regards to tuition fees, managed to implement an extremely fair repayment scheme that amounts less to loan repayments but to a graduate tax, as well as capping the fees when the Conservatives wanted unlimited fees.
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#18
(05-12-2017, 11:11 AM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-12-2017, 10:55 AM)Great Bridge Wrote: Clegg was/is a master of talking for ages without saying anything, he had other politicos nodding glaze eyed in agreement in 2010 and then had one decision to make over tuition fees and proved he was a sham and left the liberals at their weakest for nearly a century.

Junior coalition partner, can't pass everything especially when it is at odds with the senior coalition partner. Managed to get through the Green Investment Bank, cuts to income tax, gay marriage, increasing the personal tax allowance, pension triple lock, increasing the pupil premiums, shared parental leave, the first net increase in social housing since the 80s, scrapped ID card implementation, raising the income tax threshold, implemented the Vickers report on banking, funding infrastructure upgrades for high speed internet, and stopping snooping laws while in coalition.

With regards to tuition fees, managed to implement an extremely fair repayment scheme that amounts less to loan repayments but to a graduate tax, as well as capping the fees when the Conservatives wanted unlimited fees.

I also thought Clegg was unfairly treated considering he was a junior partner.
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#19
(05-12-2017, 11:58 AM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(05-12-2017, 11:11 AM)BoringBaggie Wrote:
(05-12-2017, 10:55 AM)Great Bridge Wrote: Clegg was/is a master of talking for ages without saying anything, he had other politicos nodding glaze eyed in agreement in 2010 and then had one decision to make over tuition fees and proved he was a sham and left the liberals at their weakest for nearly a century.

Junior coalition partner, can't pass everything especially when it is at odds with the senior coalition partner. Managed to get through the Green Investment Bank, cuts to income tax, gay marriage, increasing the personal tax allowance, pension triple lock, increasing the pupil premiums, shared parental leave, the first net increase in social housing since the 80s, scrapped ID card implementation, raising the income tax threshold, implemented the Vickers report on banking, funding infrastructure upgrades for high speed internet, and stopping snooping laws while in coalition.

With regards to tuition fees, managed to implement an extremely fair repayment scheme that amounts less to loan repayments but to a graduate tax, as well as capping the fees when the Conservatives wanted unlimited fees.

I also thought Clegg was unfairly treated considering he was a junior partner.

He did a job for the establishment securing a tory government and when he was no longer useful to them they fucked him off
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#20
Clegg has also been caught lying saying that no-one said Brexit meant leaving the single market. Footage of him, himself, saying it has been found.

That says all you need to know about him. He also has a fighting fund for his election campaign. The man is a multi-millionaire, for fuck's sake.

I detest him. Whilst I detest Farron's politics I think he actually seems a nice bloke. But if I were in his constituency I'd vote for the fish finger.
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