Trumpism takes hold of Brexiteers
#1
Drain the swamp  
Refusing to believe or even respect experts
Popularist language ‘the people’s Prime ministers’ Leave me leave the list is endless 
Facts are ignored
Rationality ignored
Slavish devotion to a proven liar 
Far right support 
No room for dissent 
Unelected advisors calling the shots from behind the scenes

This is what you are going to vote for at the next election?
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#2
What does “Drain the swamp” mean? Who says it?
I’ll put experts in another post.
Who calls him “The people’s Prime minister”? I’ve not heard that. This constant snide references to “the people” is a tad duplicitous on your part, who keeps calling for a second “people’s vote”?
‘Facts ignored ‘ is part of the experts bit, to you.
You mean your and other remainers ‘rationality.’
‘Unelected advisors’ . You mean people like Alistair Campbell, Jonathon Powell and Sir David Manning? Nothing new to see here.
“No room for decent “. You mean as happened to Alistair Campbell, Margot Packwood, Hilary Armstrong and the RMT? Of coarse if you are anti Semitic  it’s just a four month suspension, a la Chris Williamson.

“This is what you are going to vote for at the next election”!  Conservative (that’s with a small c) estimates indicate that at least 30% of leave voters were Labour supporters and that does not mean that up to 70% were Conservative voters. Large swathes of Labour heartlands voted to leave. Your constant lame attempts to conflate political leanings with views on national interest and democracy are becoming more than wearisome.

When it comes to ignoring facts or pathetic attempts to twist them, you are a seasoned veteran.
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#3
I think the simple fact is Johnson completely lied with tales of the EU admitting Turkey, the money for the NHS and what leaving would entail.
I know people who feel they’ve been conned.
Plenty won’t feel like it as they have just gone so far down the path they won’t admit it.
I was a mild remainer 3 years ago and I’ve managed to have a dialogue with many more sensible leavers due to my respect.
However, many have become entrenched and hold a guy of total disrepute up as some kind of statesmen.
I, like many, accept leaving, but with a deal that won’t ruin lives.
Simply though, the architect of Brexit was never able to do this as the far right have shown their demands.
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#4
(09-08-2019, 07:34 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote: What does “Drain the swamp” mean? Who says it?
I’ll put experts in another post.
Who calls him “The people’s Prime minister”? I’ve not heard that. This constant snide references to “the people” is a tad duplicitous on your part, who keeps calling for a second “people’s vote”?
‘Facts ignored ‘ is part of the experts bit, to you.
You mean your and other remainers ‘rationality.’
‘Unelected advisors’ . You mean people like Alistair Campbell, Jonathon Powell and Sir David Manning? Nothing new to see here.
“No room for decent “. You mean as happened to Alistair Campbell, Margot Packwood, Hilary Armstrong and the RMT? Of coarse if you are anti Semitic  it’s just a four month suspension, a la Chris Williamson.

“This is what you are going to vote for at the next election”!  Conservative (that’s with a small c) estimates indicate that at least 30% of leave voters were Labour supporters and that does not mean that up to 70% were Conservative voters. Large swathes of Labour heartlands voted to leave. Your constant lame attempts to conflate political leanings with views on national interest and democracy are becoming more than wearisome.

When it comes to ignoring facts or pathetic attempts to twist them, you are a seasoned veteran.

You need to go on social media more the terms drain the swamp are used constantly by Brexiteers every time a moderate Conservative resigns.

‘The people’s Prime Minister’ is trending across social media Who do you think is trying to frame the debate in this way? This is clearly the narrative that the government is trying to push.

Even the government have spelt out the dangers of leaving without a deal, but the very working class voters you mention will be worse off but that is rational point of view? Why would you want to make a decision that could by most analysis make you worse off?

This isn’t a normal election and will be a Brexit election where people will vote accordingly. It won’t be along traditional party lines. The only real party who are standing on a Brexit at all cost footing is the Tory party so you cannot try and separate Brexit from traditional party politics. Also this whole situation is down to the Conservative party’s internal politics. Brexit, this upcoming election and a break from normal political lines is all down to them.

When moderate life long Conservatives are resigning from the cabinet, getting kicked out for disagreeing with the leader and citing the party has lurched too far to right and there is no longer room for dissenting voices, then my opinion has some merit. 

Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

Not being aware that something is happening, trying to deflect by saying what about them lot over there etc is also wearisome.

What are the facts I’ve twisted, please link me to facts I have twisted?
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#5
(09-08-2019, 07:58 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You need to go on social media more the terms drain the swamp are used constantly by Brexiteers every time a moderate Conservative resigns. As are bizarre little emoticons of Israel and the US???

‘The people’s Prime Minister’ is trending across social media Who do you think is trying to frame the debate in this way? 

Even the government have spelt out the dangers of leaving without a deal, but the very working class voters you mention will be worse off but that is rational? 

This isn’t a normal election and will be a Brexit election where people will vote accordingly. It won’t be along traditional party lines. 

When moderate life long Conservatives are resigning from the cabinet, getting kicked out for disagreeing with the leader and citing the party has lurched to the extreme right then my opinion has some merit. 

Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

You pretending these things aren’t happening or excusing them because another party has / does them is equally as wearisome. 

You never said who did you vote for last election if it wasn’t the Conservatives?
Oh I do apologise, I didn’t realise I was bound by your every whim and command. When I was dragged up as an uneducated, working class, factory fodder type, I was led to believe that a person’s politics and religion was his own affair. Clearly in this age of your beloved social media it is law that anyone who thinks he has the right to know what your affiliations are has to be told.
I certainly do not need to go on social media more. This one outlet is infuriating enough. I also have better things to do with my time than spend hours reading mindless comments from all and sundry.
You are, for the sake of bludgeoning your point across, ignoring the ‘fact’ that the things you constantly berate one section of the political divide for is also happening on the other side. I have not “pretended these things aren’t happening”. I am just illuminating the fact you are. As usual.

Rational:   Constant with or based on or using reason.   Whether the outcomes of other’s rational are what you believe is irrelevant. 

I have never had a proper apology from you for, frankly libellous, assertions re my views you invented.
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#6
Im pretty sure a "people's vote" is just a descriptive phrase. It's a vote by the people, as opposed to one of the many votes on parliament. Also because just calling it a separate referendum will have some disengenous people saying "oh but we've already voted on this. WHERE'S MUH DEMOCRACY!?"

The "people's parliament" however is named as its supposedly representing the people, which is ridiculous.
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#7
(09-08-2019, 08:42 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 07:58 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You need to go on social media more the terms drain the swamp are used constantly by Brexiteers every time a moderate Conservative resigns. As are bizarre little emoticons of Israel and the US???

‘The people’s Prime Minister’ is trending across social media Who do you think is trying to frame the debate in this way? 

Even the government have spelt out the dangers of leaving without a deal, but the very working class voters you mention will be worse off but that is rational? 

This isn’t a normal election and will be a Brexit election where people will vote accordingly. It won’t be along traditional party lines. 

When moderate life long Conservatives are resigning from the cabinet, getting kicked out for disagreeing with the leader and citing the party has lurched to the extreme right then my opinion has some merit. 

Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

You pretending these things aren’t happening or excusing them because another party has / does them is equally as wearisome. 

You never said who did you vote for last election if it wasn’t the Conservatives?
Oh I do apologise, I didn’t realise I was bound by your every whim and command. When I was dragged up as an uneducated, working class, factory fodder type, I was led to believe that a person’s politics and religion was his own affair. Clearly in this age of your beloved social media it is law that anyone who thinks he has the right to know what your affiliations are has to be told.
I certainly do not need to go on social media more. This one outlet is infuriating enough. I also have better things to do with my time than spend hours reading mindless comments from all and sundry.
You are, for the sake of bludgeoning your point across, ignoring the ‘fact’ that the things you constantly berate one section of the political divide for is also happening on the other side. I have not “pretended these things aren’t happening”. I am just illuminating the fact you are. As usual.

Rational:   Constant with or based on or using reason.   Whether the outcomes of other’s rational are what you believe is irrelevant. 

I have never had a proper apology from you for, frankly libellous, assertions re my views you invented.

Ok well you could read the papers particularly today’s Mail for similar sentiment to social media. 

I recall mistakenly thinking you voted for the Conservatives which I apologised for and asked you who you did vote for when you pulled me up on it. I don’t consider that a rude question but it of course an individuals choice to say or not. What libellous things did I say? 

I want a fair, tolerant, prosperous, country that isn’t ideologically driven. Do I think this government are the answer no, do I think Brexit will help? Absolutely not! My reasons for this are numerous and well stated and imo backed up. 

I will form another conclusion, change my rationale based on judgment and inferences from facts and premises when I am presented with reasons to do so.

This comes down to what you think is best for the country and I completely disagree that a no deal Brexit or indeed Brexit is best for me or my family.
Reply
#8
(09-08-2019, 09:34 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 08:42 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 07:58 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You need to go on social media more the terms drain the swamp are used constantly by Brexiteers every time a moderate Conservative resigns. As are bizarre little emoticons of Israel and the US???

‘The people’s Prime Minister’ is trending across social media Who do you think is trying to frame the debate in this way? 

Even the government have spelt out the dangers of leaving without a deal, but the very working class voters you mention will be worse off but that is rational? 

This isn’t a normal election and will be a Brexit election where people will vote accordingly. It won’t be along traditional party lines. 

When moderate life long Conservatives are resigning from the cabinet, getting kicked out for disagreeing with the leader and citing the party has lurched to the extreme right then my opinion has some merit. 

Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

You pretending these things aren’t happening or excusing them because another party has / does them is equally as wearisome. 

You never said who did you vote for last election if it wasn’t the Conservatives?
Oh I do apologise, I didn’t realise I was bound by your every whim and command. When I was dragged up as an uneducated, working class, factory fodder type, I was led to believe that a person’s politics and religion was his own affair. Clearly in this age of your beloved social media it is law that anyone who thinks he has the right to know what your affiliations are has to be told.
I certainly do not need to go on social media more. This one outlet is infuriating enough. I also have better things to do with my time than spend hours reading mindless comments from all and sundry.
You are, for the sake of bludgeoning your point across, ignoring the ‘fact’ that the things you constantly berate one section of the political divide for is also happening on the other side. I have not “pretended these things aren’t happening”. I am just illuminating the fact you are. As usual.

Rational:   Constant with or based on or using reason.   Whether the outcomes of other’s rational are what you believe is irrelevant. 

I have never had a proper apology from you for, frankly libellous, assertions re my views you invented.

Ok well you could read the papers particularly today’s Mail for similar sentiment to social media. 

I recall mistakenly thinking you voted for the Conservatives which I apologised for and asked you who you did vote for when you pulled me up on it. I don’t consider that a rude question but it of course an individuals choice to say or not. What libellous things did I say? 

I want a fair, tolerant, prosperous, country that isn’t ideologically driven. Do I think this government are the answer no, do I think Brexit will help? Absolutely not! My reasons for this are numerous and well stated and imo backed up. 

I will form another conclusion, change my rationale based on judgment and inferences from facts and premises when I am presented with reasons to do so.

This comes down to what you think is best for the country and I completely disagree that a no deal Brexit or indeed Brexit is best for me or my family.

Which is not necessarily the same thing, of course.

My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level. It was an enormous risk but more so it was also an enormous opportunity. The past three years have been squandered by incompetents who never wanted to leave as it's far easier to make non-decisions and shuffle resources around the board according to the whim of that time. No-deal should have been an opening gambit and, of course no one really wants that in terms of a precipice, but we started with EU alignment and tried to edge away rather than the other way round.

There's been a lot of talk about such and such agreement taking 7 years to be agreed a la Canada. Part of the reason for this is that work expands to the amount of time it's given. It's in the legal profession's best interest to prolong this arrangements for as long as they can and the EU are dab hands at this as the large majority of their employees are in place to suck up funds at any given opportunity with no justification (another reason for me wanting us to leave). Now a 3-year deadline may well have been feasible; seven or eight weeks is definitely not and especially in the hands of the current incumbents.


Given the "leadership" we now have it place I think there is only really one solution and that is to revoke Article 50. Fugg the referendum; politicians rarely deliver on their promises anyway and this affront to democracy would be forgotten about soon enough. The only analogy I can give is of someone who works for a company where opportunities and salary increases are limited so they go and try and set up on their own. They give it a half-arsed go, bring in the wrong people to advise them, make a hash of it losing a fair bit of their nest-egg and eventually go cap in hand back to their former employer and get their job back. It's a bit embarrassing initially but soon enough things go back to normal, even if there is still a little animosity between both sides. 


Yes, it would be a sad end to a sorry affair but as we have no-one around who has any vision or roadmap to how they want to actually position our country or what they want to do with it Post Brexit (a little like Blair/Bush in Iraq) then I see no other option. The only possible light at the end of the tunnel would be that even those clowns in safe seats would feel the wrath of the local electorate given their antics within this increasingly visible sphere and would subsequently get publicly whipped, stripped and tarred. And then, and this a slim hope, we could bring in a group of people who could actually negotiate properly with the EU instead of getting shafted like David Cameron with his empty, Chamberlain-esque offerings.
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#9
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 09:34 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 08:42 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 07:58 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You need to go on social media more the terms drain the swamp are used constantly by Brexiteers every time a moderate Conservative resigns. As are bizarre little emoticons of Israel and the US???

‘The people’s Prime Minister’ is trending across social media Who do you think is trying to frame the debate in this way? 

Even the government have spelt out the dangers of leaving without a deal, but the very working class voters you mention will be worse off but that is rational? 

This isn’t a normal election and will be a Brexit election where people will vote accordingly. It won’t be along traditional party lines. 

When moderate life long Conservatives are resigning from the cabinet, getting kicked out for disagreeing with the leader and citing the party has lurched to the extreme right then my opinion has some merit. 

Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

You pretending these things aren’t happening or excusing them because another party has / does them is equally as wearisome. 

You never said who did you vote for last election if it wasn’t the Conservatives?
Oh I do apologise, I didn’t realise I was bound by your every whim and command. When I was dragged up as an uneducated, working class, factory fodder type, I was led to believe that a person’s politics and religion was his own affair. Clearly in this age of your beloved social media it is law that anyone who thinks he has the right to know what your affiliations are has to be told.
I certainly do not need to go on social media more. This one outlet is infuriating enough. I also have better things to do with my time than spend hours reading mindless comments from all and sundry.
You are, for the sake of bludgeoning your point across, ignoring the ‘fact’ that the things you constantly berate one section of the political divide for is also happening on the other side. I have not “pretended these things aren’t happening”. I am just illuminating the fact you are. As usual.

Rational:   Constant with or based on or using reason.   Whether the outcomes of other’s rational are what you believe is irrelevant. 

I have never had a proper apology from you for, frankly libellous, assertions re my views you invented.

Ok well you could read the papers particularly today’s Mail for similar sentiment to social media. 

I recall mistakenly thinking you voted for the Conservatives which I apologised for and asked you who you did vote for when you pulled me up on it. I don’t consider that a rude question but it of course an individuals choice to say or not. What libellous things did I say? 

I want a fair, tolerant, prosperous, country that isn’t ideologically driven. Do I think this government are the answer no, do I think Brexit will help? Absolutely not! My reasons for this are numerous and well stated and imo backed up. 

I will form another conclusion, change my rationale based on judgment and inferences from facts and premises when I am presented with reasons to do so.

This comes down to what you think is best for the country and I completely disagree that a no deal Brexit or indeed Brexit is best for me or my family.

Which is not necessarily the same thing, of course.

My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level. It was an enormous risk but more so it was also an enormous opportunity. The past three years have been squandered by incompetents who never wanted to leave as it's far easier to make non-decisions and shuffle resources around the board according to the whim of that time. No-deal should have been an opening gambit and, of course no one really wants that in terms of a precipice, but we started with EU alignment and tried to edge away rather than the other way round.

There's been a lot of talk about such and such agreement taking 7 years to be agreed a la Canada. Part of the reason for this is that work expands to the amount of time it's given. It's in the legal profession's best interest to prolong this arrangements for as long as they can and the EU are dab hands at this as the large majority of their employees are in place to suck up funds at any given opportunity with no justification (another reason for me wanting us to leave). Now a 3-year deadline may well have been feasible; seven or eight weeks is definitely not and especially in the hands of the current incumbents.


Given the "leadership" we now have it place I think there is only really one solution and that is to revoke Article 50. Fugg the referendum; politicians rarely deliver on their promises anyway and this affront to democracy would be forgotten about soon enough. The only analogy I can give is of someone who works for a company where opportunities and salary increases are limited so they go and try and set up on their own. They give it a half-arsed go, bring in the wrong people to advise them, make a hash of it losing a fair bit of their nest-egg and eventually go cap in hand back to their former employer and get their job back. It's a bit embarrassing initially but soon enough things go back to normal, even if there is still a little animosity between both sides. 


Yes, it would be a sad end to a sorry affair but as we have no-one around who has any vision or roadmap to how they want to actually position our country or what they want to do with it Post Brexit (a little like Blair/Bush in Iraq) then I see no other option. The only possible light at the end of the tunnel would be that even those clowns in safe seats would feel the wrath of the local electorate given their antics within this increasingly visible sphere and would subsequently get publicly whipped, stripped and tarred. And then, and this a slim hope, we could bring in a group of people who could actually negotiate properly with the EU instead of getting shafted like David Cameron with his empty, Chamberlain-esque offerings.
Spot on Fido probaly the most sensible post I've read during this entire fuggin mess and yes I voted to leave for similar reasons to your self but our so called political elite have balls this up big time and shafted us at every turn its seems to me at this point now its no longer what is best fot the UK but an heaven sent opportunity for some mps to settle  personal and political vendettas, if we had a prime minister and MP's worth their salt we would have negotiated a deal and left by now but oh no as per usual they default into complete twat and let's put a spanner in the works mode, we really should not have expected anything else with these lying treacherous cunts(of all parties), what a sorry mess we have become.
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#10
The elephant in the room is we already have the best deal we will ever have with Europe. It may not be the best for those that don’t want to uphold workers rights and human rights but I’m happy that is the case.
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