Trumpism takes hold of Brexiteers
#21
(09-20-2019, 07:48 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:28 AM)ColliersWoodBaggie Wrote: Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
Really?   As I’ve written before:

Just remind me again, when did we vote for Ursula von Der Leyden? 
Did I miss the election for Donald Tusk? 
When did we vote for Jean Claude Junker? 
Was Antonio Tajani give a mandate from the European wide electorate? I must have missed that.
I must have imagined that even the European Parliament united as one to condemn the selection of the new EU commission president “behind closed doors”.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government.

Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government.

See the answer for von Der Leyden.

Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli.

There is a lack of oversight by the Parliament in the appointing commissioners, though the Parliament is able to collapse the commission or pressure the president in removing comissioners, as has happened before.

Seems significantly more accountable than selecting the Prime Minister and the rest of the government, not least by the fact that I voted for one of my MEPs but I didn't vote for my MP.
Reply
#22
(09-20-2019, 08:20 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:48 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:28 AM)ColliersWoodBaggie Wrote: Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
Really?   As I’ve written before:

Just remind me again, when did we vote for Ursula von Der Leyden? 
Did I miss the election for Donald Tusk? 
When did we vote for Jean Claude Junker? 
Was Antonio Tajani give a mandate from the European wide electorate? I must have missed that.
I must have imagined that even the European Parliament united as one to condemn the selection of the new EU commission president “behind closed doors”.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government.

Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government.

See the answer for von Der Leyden.

Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli.

There is a lack of oversight by the Parliament in the appointing commissioners, though the Parliament is able to collapse the commission or pressure the president in removing comissioners, as has happened before.

Seems significantly more accountable than selecting the Prime Minister and the rest of the government, not least by the fact that I voted for one of my MEPs but I didn't vote for my MP.

We have a current Prime Minister put in power by 120,000 silver haired conservatives. We have a conservative govt that got elected on 45.6% of a 69% turnout. Not saying the EU is more democratic or less. Democracy provides the people with the power to elect. Many choose not to exercise this power which is an absolute lack of duty given what people have sacrificed in the past to allow us to.

The other element that is actually undemocratic is the first past the post system. My vote basically counts for nothing year in year out because of the way the constituencies are gerrymandered and because of the demography / history of where i live.
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#23
(09-20-2019, 09:26 AM)billybassett Wrote: We have a current Prime Minister put in power by 120,000 silver haired conservatives. We have a conservative govt that got elected on 45.6% of a 69% turnout. Not saying the EU is more democratic or less. Democracy provides the people with the power to elect. Many choose not to exercise this power which is an absolute lack of duty given what people have sacrificed in the past to allow us to.

The other element that is actually undemocratic is the first past the post system. My vote basically counts for nothing year in year out because of the way the constituencies are gerrymandered and because of the demography / history of where i live.

Just to clarify one point there - Boris only got voted for by (IIRC) 96,000 of the doddery old fuckers, less than is needed to get a petition read in parliament
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#24
(09-20-2019, 09:57 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 09:26 AM)billybassett Wrote: We have a current Prime Minister put in power by 120,000 silver haired conservatives. We have a conservative govt that got elected on 45.6% of a 69% turnout. Not saying the EU is more democratic or less. Democracy provides the people with the power to elect. Many choose not to exercise this power which is an absolute lack of duty given what people have sacrificed in the past to allow us to.

The other element that is actually undemocratic is the first past the post system. My vote basically counts for nothing year in year out because of the way the constituencies are gerrymandered and because of the demography / history of where i live.

Just to clarify one point there - Boris only got voted for by (IIRC) 96,000 of the doddery old fuckers, less than is needed to get a petition read in parliament
I see no need for the ageists bile.

If you had said “middle aged, southern softies” I could accept it.
Reply
#25
(09-20-2019, 08:20 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:48 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:28 AM)ColliersWoodBaggie Wrote: Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
Really?   As I’ve written before:

Just remind me again, when did we vote for Ursula von Der Leyden? 
Did I miss the election for Donald Tusk? 
When did we vote for Jean Claude Junker? 
Was Antonio Tajani give a mandate from the European wide electorate? I must have missed that.
I must have imagined that even the European Parliament united as one to condemn the selection of the new EU commission president “behind closed doors”.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government.

Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government.

See the answer for von Der Leyden.

Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli.

There is a lack of oversight by the Parliament in the appointing commissioners, though the Parliament is able to collapse the commission or pressure the president in removing comissioners, as has happened before.

Seems significantly more accountable than selecting the Prime Minister and the rest of the government, not least by the fact that I voted for one of my MEPs but I didn't vote for my MP.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government. - so the public never got a vote
Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government - So the public never got a vote
Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli - so the public never got a vote
There seems a common thread here, but given how little remainers seem to value any vote that goes against their view why am i surprised you think this state of affairs is OK?
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#26
(09-20-2019, 06:18 PM)Sotv Wrote: The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government. - so the public never got a vote
Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government - So the public never got a vote
Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli - so the public never got a vote
There seems a common thread here, but given how little remainers seem to value any vote that goes against their view why am i surprised you think this state of affairs is OK?

So what you're saying is...the public should always vote on any governmental position of authority. Interesting, perhaps you'd like to tell the Tories?

Also - VDL is head of the Commision which proposes legislation but does not have a vote on whether it is implemented so why would she need to be elected by the public? Our civil servants aren't. Also, this role is elected by the European Parliament whose MEPs are elected by the public.

Tusk is president of the council which provides policy direction but has no legislative power so why would he need to be elected by the public? Again, our civil servants aren't

Tajani is the president of the Parliament which is a role analagous to the speaker of the HoC, why would he need to be elected by the public and if he does, why doesn't our speaker? This role is elected by the MEPs who are elected by the public, in much the same way as our Prime Minister is. 

The only people in the EU who actually have a vote on whether a piece of legislation is passed ARE directly elected by the public and they are then responsible for electing people to position of authority in the other branches of government. This seems perfectly democratic to me and in fact more democratic that the UK when only 1 of two houses is elected.
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#27
(09-20-2019, 06:41 PM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 06:18 PM)Sotv Wrote: The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government. - so the public never got a vote
Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government - So the public never got a vote
Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli - so the public never got a vote
There seems a common thread here, but given how little remainers seem to value any vote that goes against their view why am i surprised you think this state of affairs is OK?

So what you're saying is...the public should always vote on any governmental position of authority. Interesting, perhaps you'd like to tell the Tories?

Also - VDL is head of the Commision which proposes legislation but does not have a vote on whether it is implemented so why would she need to be elected by the public? Our civil servants aren't. Also, this role is elected by the European Parliament whose MEPs are elected by the public.

Tusk is president of the council which provides policy direction but has no legislative power so why would he need to be elected by the public? Again, our civil servants aren't

Tajani is the president of the Parliament which is a role analagous to the speaker of the HoC, why would he need to be elected by the public and if he does, why doesn't our speaker? This role is elected by the MEPs who are elected by the public, in much the same way as our Prime Minister is. 

The only people in the EU who actually have a vote on whether a piece of legislation is passed ARE directly elected by the public and they are then responsible for electing people to position of authority in the other branches of government. This seems perfectly democratic to me and in fact more democratic that the UK when only 1 of two houses is elected.

Brexiteers don’t need facts they ‘believe’.
Reply
#28
(09-20-2019, 06:18 PM)Sotv Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 08:20 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:48 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:28 AM)ColliersWoodBaggie Wrote: Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote: Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
Really?   As I’ve written before:

Just remind me again, when did we vote for Ursula von Der Leyden? 
Did I miss the election for Donald Tusk? 
When did we vote for Jean Claude Junker? 
Was Antonio Tajani give a mandate from the European wide electorate? I must have missed that.
I must have imagined that even the European Parliament united as one to condemn the selection of the new EU commission president “behind closed doors”.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government.

Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government.

See the answer for von Der Leyden.

Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli.

There is a lack of oversight by the Parliament in the appointing commissioners, though the Parliament is able to collapse the commission or pressure the president in removing comissioners, as has happened before.

Seems significantly more accountable than selecting the Prime Minister and the rest of the government, not least by the fact that I voted for one of my MEPs but I didn't vote for my MP.

The council and the parliament selected von Der Leyden, ergo UK MEPs and the UK government. - so the public never got a vote
Tusk is elected by the council, ergo the UK government - So the public never got a vote
Tajani was elected by MEPs, including the UK MEPs, same as Sassoli - so the public never got a vote
There seems a common thread here, but given how little remainers seem to value any vote that goes against their view why am i surprised you think this state of affairs is OK?

Do you understand what representative democracy is? I've had significantly more democratic input into the appointment of the above than I did their parallel in the UK. And as I've said, at least I voted for one of my MEPs. I've never voted for my MPs.
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#29
Of course I understand representative democracy, I would never have got my degree in politics and philosophy if I didn’t. The problem is the current crop just aren’t representing the view of the majority. It seems you prefer a system somewhat akin to Plato’s philosopher kings.
I’m not really a fan of fptp as we use but at least if you are unhappy with a party’s leader you can vote that party out at the next election.
Are you really complaining that because you never voted on the winning side in an election that you think it’s undemocratic?
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#30
(09-20-2019, 08:34 PM)Sotv Wrote: Of course I understand representative democracy, I would never have got my degree in politics and philosophy if I didn’t.  The problem is the current crop just aren’t representing the view of the majority. It seems you prefer a system somewhat akin to Plato’s philosopher kings.
I’m not really a fan of fptp as we use but at least if you are unhappy with a party’s leader you can vote that party out at the next election.
Are you really complaining that because you never voted on the winning side in an election that you think it’s undemocratic?

If you understand representative democracy, why the hell are you complaining about the public not having a direct vote on EU positions when elected representatives select said representatives?

And I'm complaining that FPTP isn't proportionally representative, because it isn't. The D'Hondt (or STV in Northern Ireland) system used in the UK European Elections is significantly more representative as my vote, and that of many many many others, isn't immediately discarded. Therefore the MEPs are more representative then MPs.
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