Trumpism takes hold of Brexiteers
#11
(09-08-2019, 11:23 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: The elephant in the room is we already have the best deal we will ever have with Europe. It may not be the best for those that don’t want to uphold workers rights and human rights but I’m happy that is the case.

We had a pretty good deal that Cameron brought back nearly 4 years ago. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e...m-35622105

Which bits of that don't we like now. Waste of fucking three years.
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#12
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level. It was an enormous risk but more so it was also an enormous opportunity. The past three years have been squandered by incompetents who never wanted to leave as it's far easier to make non-decisions and shuffle resources around the board according to the whim of that time. No-deal should have been an opening gambit and, of course no one really wants that in terms of a precipice, but we started with EU alignment and tried to edge away rather than the other way round.

Some of that paragraph I'd go along with, but I'm not having the highlighted bit. Post referendum, it was Leave who had control of the agenda and have proved themselves singularly incapable of taking the opportunity to deliver on the promises which were glibly thrown around back in 2016. Having won, it was incumbent on Leave to make things work and there was certainly no obligation on remainers to make life easy for them. That's the very essence of government and opposition.

This whole mess is a Tory construct followed by a failure to deliver by those on the Leave side. No group has done more to derail the process at critical stages than the evangelical zealots of the ERG.
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#13
(09-08-2019, 01:28 PM)Ossian Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level. It was an enormous risk but more so it was also an enormous opportunity. The past three years have been squandered by incompetents who never wanted to leave as it's far easier to make non-decisions and shuffle resources around the board according to the whim of that time. No-deal should have been an opening gambit and, of course no one really wants that in terms of a precipice, but we started with EU alignment and tried to edge away rather than the other way round.

Some of that paragraph I'd go along with, but I'm not having the highlighted bit. Post referendum, it was Leave who had control of the agenda and have proved themselves singularly incapable of taking the opportunity to deliver on the promises which were glibly thrown around back in 2016. Having won, it was incumbent on Leave to make things work and there was certainly no obligation on remainers to make life easy for them. That's the very essence of government and opposition.

This whole mess is a Tory construct followed by a failure to deliver by those on the Leave side. No group has done more to derail the process at critical stages than the evangelical zealots of the ERG.
 It's also the case the Leavers had no plan because they didn't think it would happen. Johnson wasn't really leaver but it had suited him in his ambitions for that pretence.  Then reality bites and we have got to the stage where Dominic "Dr Strangelove" Cummings has burrowed into the heart of government.
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#14
Ouch
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#15
(09-10-2019, 01:03 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Ouch
On Radio 4 a week or two back we had a similar super-brain, who couldn't even work out that it was the English channel separating us from France.
Truth is the experts, the overwhelming number of our MPs, said leaving would be madness, as have all living ex-prime ministers. However, this Scottish truck driver is a fairly decent benchmark of the huge number of poorly educated people who seemed to think a huge leap into the dark was a better option than the status quo.
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#16
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).
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#17
(09-08-2019, 07:58 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Where is the evidence that this government is trying to secure a deal? 

Laura Kuenessberg:  Not my most favourite political journalist, Just said on BBC ‘Brexitcast’ that she has seen “over the last couple of weeks” documents from both sides which have passed back and forth. See also said she knows for certain that discussions and meetings have been taking place for some time.

Would you class that as evidence?

It’s lot like the main board in July, The Baggies haven’t signed anyone and there have been no statements so, clearly, Dowling and the “recruitment team” have been doing bugger all.
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#18
Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
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#19
(Yesterday, 07:28 AM)ColliersWoodBaggie Wrote: Just wait for the food and medicine riots.................

(09-10-2019, 04:00 PM)chasetownbaggie Wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:10 AM)Fido Wrote: My reasons for leaving were based more on the fact that accountability in politics has been so ridiculously low for such a long time and to have UK independence would mean that politicians could not constantly hide behind the screen of the EU and just let the country plod along either at an economic and social level.

Well done, mon - that's the most coherent reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter. Interestingly, probably the main reasons I voted remain was that I believed most (if not all) of the ills of this country were down to those in Westminster, not the scapegoats of the EU. Despite the divisions in the country, I suspect many Remainers and Leavers have more in common than they actually realise. Sadly, they don't get to recognise this because all debates quickly descend into acrimonious slanging matches (btw, did anyone see last week's edition of QT on the BBC? Pathetic).

Strangely, the EU is far more democratic - it is based along federal lines - rather than our bloated, tired old constitution (which does have some merits - Parliament being sovereign, for a start). .
Really?   As I’ve written before:

Just remind me again, when did we vote for Ursula von Der Leyden? 
Did I miss the election for Donald Tusk? 
When did we vote for Jean Claude Junker? 
Was Antonio Tajani give a mandate from the European wide electorate? I must have missed that.
I must have imagined that even the European Parliament united as one to condemn the selection of the new EU commission president “behind closed doors”.
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#20
And this is where the confusion and misdirection starts. Each of the EU member states has a turn at the presidential roles but the powers held are not the same as a President (in the US sense) or even a Prime Minister (in the UK sense), they are more a spokesperson for the councils.

It is a different structure to the UK and trying to draw a parallel will always cause confusion - the nearest we could draw is that we haven't had an election for our Prime minister but even that doesn't compare. It's somewhere between that and us electing the monarch.

They are effectively spokespersons and not decision makers and each nation gets their turn in taking that role. The European Parliament is where the decisions are made, and unfortunately because we have the embarrassing shambles that is the Brexit party represented over there we don't get much input.
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