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69% of the UK thinks Brexit should go ahead
#11
I voted Remain but I've got no appetite for another referendum. I don't want to go through another bout of scaremongering and disinformation and lies all over again (both sides). Leave it to Parliament to finalise and ratify.
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#12
I said 'might need' not 'want'. There is a difference between the two.
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#13
(04-03-2017, 08:28 AM)Bratislava Baggie Wrote: I guess I'm in the 69% but less likely to ever move back to the UK ever again partly as a result of this.

It's complicated any future plans we might have to move too. Where I can carry on working/semi retire/retire at least ten years earlier and have enough land to be near enough self sufficient for food, including fattening a pig for Christmas and growing grapes to make my own wine. We'd probably be able to get an apartment by the sea as well. But I'm not a bitter remoaner.

Thanks Brexit.
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#14
(04-03-2017, 12:37 PM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 08:28 AM)Bratislava Baggie Wrote: I guess I'm in the 69% but less likely to ever move back to the UK ever again partly as a result of this.

It's complicated any future plans we might have to move too. Where I can carry on working/semi retire/retire at least ten years earlier and have enough land to be near enough self sufficient for food, including fattening a pig for Christmas and growing grapes to make my own wine. We'd probably be able to get an apartment by the sea as well. But I'm not a bitter remoaner.

Thanks Brexit.

Mine partly depends on what deal they come up with for the 4.2m who are either from EU in UK or from UK in EU. If it's some permanent visa for all of the EU or just for Slovakia we'll have to see. Having worked in offices for the last 11 years that have contained pretty much citizens from all of the EU I feel very much part of the club and if I had to chose either I'd probably lose my UK passport.
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#15
(04-03-2017, 02:23 PM)Bratislava Baggie Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 12:37 PM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 08:28 AM)Bratislava Baggie Wrote: I guess I'm in the 69% but less likely to ever move back to the UK ever again partly as a result of this.

It's complicated any future plans we might have to move too. Where I can carry on working/semi retire/retire at least ten years earlier and have enough land to be near enough self sufficient for food, including fattening a pig for Christmas and growing grapes to make my own wine. We'd probably be able to get an apartment by the sea as well. But I'm not a bitter remoaner.

Thanks Brexit.

Mine partly depends on what deal they come up with for the 4.2m who are either from EU in UK or from UK in EU. If it's some permanent visa for all of the EU or just for Slovakia we'll have to see. Having worked in offices for the last 11 years that have contained pretty much citizens from all of the EU I feel very much part of the club and if I had to chose either I'd probably lose my UK passport.

I can't see anything other than things as they are. You have full permission to stay there and EU nationals in UK have full permission to stay here.
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#16
(04-03-2017, 09:19 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: Whether Art 50 can be reversed is a matter for the courts, should it become relevant. 

If so, a reference to the ECJ will be made. As the fact that it is reversible would help to keep us in the EU, the ECJ will almost certainly decide that it is. But this is only an issue if Parliament passes legislation to keep us in the EU further down the line. (A corollary of the Supreme Court's decision in Gina Miller's case is that May alone could not withdraw the Art 50 notice using the prerogative.)

What I don't get about people wanting a referendum on the final deal is this. Some of those same people wanted Parliament to vote on the triggering of Art 50 as MPs are our representatives and Parliament is the true democratic process in the UK, not referenda.

But they now want a referendum on the final deal with us staying in the EU if the deal is rejected. That is in addition to the vote in Parliament on the deal that they want and are getting. This position is one of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron. Again.

I know the Parliamentary vote being offered is not to Clegg and Farron's liking but the point on the referendum remains: it wasn't a legitimate expression of democracy sufficient enough to take us out, but a referendum will be a legitimate expression of democracy enough to keep us in.

 We may also get access to the single market without freedom of movement a la Canada, though I think that is very, very unlikely. 

The issue of British citizens abroad is a matter for the EU and the individual states after we have left. I doubt they will be turfed-out as they tend to be monied. 

The jungle won't move to the UK because the deal establishing checks in France was concluded outside the EU framework. It continues in force. That was another remain lie, actually. 

I also doubt that the negotiation period will be extended as this requires unanimity. Us leaving without a trade deal is to Spain's benefits as it would then effectively have a veto under Art 218 on any such deal and its applicability to Gibraltar. 

The mood COULD change. But if things continue as they are (economically) I think the quite petty noises coming out of Brussels and Madrid will strengthen the Brexit sentiment.

I don't think the migrants (sorry expats) in Spain or elsewhere will be booted out either it's more to the point that they may have to return due to issues like access to free  health care. They're going to embrace all leave supporters on their return.

If relations sour with Spain due to Gibraltar it's not going to help their cause. Jingoistic claptrap like today's Sun headline, "Up Yours Senors" and Michael Howard's Falkland references ain't  going to help and is not what the country needs right now. We're supposed to be coming together but this rubbish will further alienate half the population.

As to the deal with France on illegal immigrants. How set in stone is that and can the French not renege on the deal, there have already been rumblings that it may end. What do the French and the rest of the EU owe us now. Some of you are like a husband who has just handed over the divorce papers but still expects a blowie.

Up Yours Seniors
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#17
(04-04-2017, 07:00 AM)Cheers Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 09:19 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: Whether Art 50 can be reversed is a matter for the courts, should it become relevant. 

If so, a reference to the ECJ will be made. As the fact that it is reversible would help to keep us in the EU, the ECJ will almost certainly decide that it is. But this is only an issue if Parliament passes legislation to keep us in the EU further down the line. (A corollary of the Supreme Court's decision in Gina Miller's case is that May alone could not withdraw the Art 50 notice using the prerogative.)

What I don't get about people wanting a referendum on the final deal is this. Some of those same people wanted Parliament to vote on the triggering of Art 50 as MPs are our representatives and Parliament is the true democratic process in the UK, not referenda.

But they now want a referendum on the final deal with us staying in the EU if the deal is rejected. That is in addition to the vote in Parliament on the deal that they want and are getting. This position is one of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron. Again.

I know the Parliamentary vote being offered is not to Clegg and Farron's liking but the point on the referendum remains: it wasn't a legitimate expression of democracy sufficient enough to take us out, but a referendum will be a legitimate expression of democracy enough to keep us in.

 We may also get access to the single market without freedom of movement a la Canada, though I think that is very, very unlikely. 

The issue of British citizens abroad is a matter for the EU and the individual states after we have left. I doubt they will be turfed-out as they tend to be monied. 

The jungle won't move to the UK because the deal establishing checks in France was concluded outside the EU framework. It continues in force. That was another remain lie, actually. 

I also doubt that the negotiation period will be extended as this requires unanimity. Us leaving without a trade deal is to Spain's benefits as it would then effectively have a veto under Art 218 on any such deal and its applicability to Gibraltar. 

The mood COULD change. But if things continue as they are (economically) I think the quite petty noises coming out of Brussels and Madrid will strengthen the Brexit sentiment.

I don't think the migrants (sorry expats) in Spain or elsewhere will be booted out either it's more to the point that they may have to return due to issues like access to free  health care. They're going to embrace all leave supporters on their return.

If relations sour with Spain due to Gibraltar it's not going to help their cause. Jingoistic claptrap like today's Sun headline, "Up Yours Senors" and Michael Howard's Falkland references ain't  going to help and is not what the country needs right now. We're supposed to be coming together but this rubbish will further alienate half the population.

As to the deal with France on illegal immigrants. How set in stone is that and can the French not renege on the deal, there have already been rumblings that it may end. What do the French and the rest of the EU owe us now. Some of you are like a husband who has just handed over the divorce papers but still expects a blowie.

Up Yours Seniors

In reality no one has a clue what Brexit is or means other than leaving the EU. Anyone who says differently is a liar. 

My guess is hardliners like Mogg etc will never be satisfied with any negotiations unless they see a return to the make believe 1950s then again in his case I suspect more like the 1850s.
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#18
(04-04-2017, 07:00 AM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 09:19 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: Whether Art 50 can be reversed is a matter for the courts, should it become relevant. 

If so, a reference to the ECJ will be made. As the fact that it is reversible would help to keep us in the EU, the ECJ will almost certainly decide that it is. But this is only an issue if Parliament passes legislation to keep us in the EU further down the line. (A corollary of the Supreme Court's decision in Gina Miller's case is that May alone could not withdraw the Art 50 notice using the prerogative.)

What I don't get about people wanting a referendum on the final deal is this. Some of those same people wanted Parliament to vote on the triggering of Art 50 as MPs are our representatives and Parliament is the true democratic process in the UK, not referenda.

But they now want a referendum on the final deal with us staying in the EU if the deal is rejected. That is in addition to the vote in Parliament on the deal that they want and are getting. This position is one of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron. Again.

I know the Parliamentary vote being offered is not to Clegg and Farron's liking but the point on the referendum remains: it wasn't a legitimate expression of democracy sufficient enough to take us out, but a referendum will be a legitimate expression of democracy enough to keep us in.

 We may also get access to the single market without freedom of movement a la Canada, though I think that is very, very unlikely. 

The issue of British citizens abroad is a matter for the EU and the individual states after we have left. I doubt they will be turfed-out as they tend to be monied. 

The jungle won't move to the UK because the deal establishing checks in France was concluded outside the EU framework. It continues in force. That was another remain lie, actually. 

I also doubt that the negotiation period will be extended as this requires unanimity. Us leaving without a trade deal is to Spain's benefits as it would then effectively have a veto under Art 218 on any such deal and its applicability to Gibraltar. 

The mood COULD change. But if things continue as they are (economically) I think the quite petty noises coming out of Brussels and Madrid will strengthen the Brexit sentiment.

I don't think the migrants (sorry expats) in Spain or elsewhere will be booted out either it's more to the point that they may have to return due to issues like access to free  health care. They're going to embrace all leave supporters on their return.

If relations sour with Spain due to Gibraltar it's not going to help their cause. Jingoistic claptrap like today's Sun headline, "Up Yours Senors" and Michael Howard's Falkland references ain't  going to help and is not what the country needs right now. We're supposed to be coming together but this rubbish will further alienate half the population.

As to the deal with France on illegal immigrants. How set in stone is that and can the French not renege on the deal, there have already been rumblings that it may end. What do the French and the rest of the EU owe us now. Some of you are like a husband who has just handed over the divorce papers but still expects a blowie.

Up Yours Seniors

Er, no, we expect binding international commitments outside the EU to be adhered to. That's why they are negotiated and signed in the first place.

(04-04-2017, 07:46 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(04-04-2017, 07:00 AM)Cheers Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 09:19 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: Whether Art 50 can be reversed is a matter for the courts, should it become relevant. 

If so, a reference to the ECJ will be made. As the fact that it is reversible would help to keep us in the EU, the ECJ will almost certainly decide that it is. But this is only an issue if Parliament passes legislation to keep us in the EU further down the line. (A corollary of the Supreme Court's decision in Gina Miller's case is that May alone could not withdraw the Art 50 notice using the prerogative.)

What I don't get about people wanting a referendum on the final deal is this. Some of those same people wanted Parliament to vote on the triggering of Art 50 as MPs are our representatives and Parliament is the true democratic process in the UK, not referenda.

But they now want a referendum on the final deal with us staying in the EU if the deal is rejected. That is in addition to the vote in Parliament on the deal that they want and are getting. This position is one of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron. Again.

I know the Parliamentary vote being offered is not to Clegg and Farron's liking but the point on the referendum remains: it wasn't a legitimate expression of democracy sufficient enough to take us out, but a referendum will be a legitimate expression of democracy enough to keep us in.

 We may also get access to the single market without freedom of movement a la Canada, though I think that is very, very unlikely. 

The issue of British citizens abroad is a matter for the EU and the individual states after we have left. I doubt they will be turfed-out as they tend to be monied. 

The jungle won't move to the UK because the deal establishing checks in France was concluded outside the EU framework. It continues in force. That was another remain lie, actually. 

I also doubt that the negotiation period will be extended as this requires unanimity. Us leaving without a trade deal is to Spain's benefits as it would then effectively have a veto under Art 218 on any such deal and its applicability to Gibraltar. 

The mood COULD change. But if things continue as they are (economically) I think the quite petty noises coming out of Brussels and Madrid will strengthen the Brexit sentiment.

I don't think the migrants (sorry expats) in Spain or elsewhere will be booted out either it's more to the point that they may have to return due to issues like access to free  health care. They're going to embrace all leave supporters on their return.

If relations sour with Spain due to Gibraltar it's not going to help their cause. Jingoistic claptrap like today's Sun headline, "Up Yours Senors" and Michael Howard's Falkland references ain't  going to help and is not what the country needs right now. We're supposed to be coming together but this rubbish will further alienate half the population.

As to the deal with France on illegal immigrants. How set in stone is that and can the French not renege on the deal, there have already been rumblings that it may end. What do the French and the rest of the EU owe us now. Some of you are like a husband who has just handed over the divorce papers but still expects a blowie.

Up Yours Seniors

In reality no one has a clue what Brexit is or means other than leaving the EU. Anyone who says differently is a liar. 

My guess is hardliners like Mogg etc will never be satisfied with any negotiations unless they see a return to the make believe 1950s then again in his case I suspect more like the 1850s.

So no-one has any idea what it means, according to you, but you then impute a meaning to someone. Make your mind up, Einstein.
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#19
(04-04-2017, 09:40 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote:
(04-04-2017, 07:00 AM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(04-03-2017, 09:19 AM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: Whether Art 50 can be reversed is a matter for the courts, should it become relevant. 

If so, a reference to the ECJ will be made. As the fact that it is reversible would help to keep us in the EU, the ECJ will almost certainly decide that it is. But this is only an issue if Parliament passes legislation to keep us in the EU further down the line. (A corollary of the Supreme Court's decision in Gina Miller's case is that May alone could not withdraw the Art 50 notice using the prerogative.)

What I don't get about people wanting a referendum on the final deal is this. Some of those same people wanted Parliament to vote on the triggering of Art 50 as MPs are our representatives and Parliament is the true democratic process in the UK, not referenda.

But they now want a referendum on the final deal with us staying in the EU if the deal is rejected. That is in addition to the vote in Parliament on the deal that they want and are getting. This position is one of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron. Again.

I know the Parliamentary vote being offered is not to Clegg and Farron's liking but the point on the referendum remains: it wasn't a legitimate expression of democracy sufficient enough to take us out, but a referendum will be a legitimate expression of democracy enough to keep us in.

 We may also get access to the single market without freedom of movement a la Canada, though I think that is very, very unlikely. 

The issue of British citizens abroad is a matter for the EU and the individual states after we have left. I doubt they will be turfed-out as they tend to be monied. 

The jungle won't move to the UK because the deal establishing checks in France was concluded outside the EU framework. It continues in force. That was another remain lie, actually. 

I also doubt that the negotiation period will be extended as this requires unanimity. Us leaving without a trade deal is to Spain's benefits as it would then effectively have a veto under Art 218 on any such deal and its applicability to Gibraltar. 

The mood COULD change. But if things continue as they are (economically) I think the quite petty noises coming out of Brussels and Madrid will strengthen the Brexit sentiment.

I don't think the migrants (sorry expats) in Spain or elsewhere will be booted out either it's more to the point that they may have to return due to issues like access to free  health care. They're going to embrace all leave supporters on their return.

If relations sour with Spain due to Gibraltar it's not going to help their cause. Jingoistic claptrap like today's Sun headline, "Up Yours Senors" and Michael Howard's Falkland references ain't  going to help and is not what the country needs right now. We're supposed to be coming together but this rubbish will further alienate half the population.

As to the deal with France on illegal immigrants. How set in stone is that and can the French not renege on the deal, there have already been rumblings that it may end. What do the French and the rest of the EU owe us now. Some of you are like a husband who has just handed over the divorce papers but still expects a blowie.

Up Yours Seniors

Er, no, we expect binding international commitments outside the EU to be adhered to. That's why they are negotiated and signed in the first place.

Another bloody article.

The Le Touquet Treaty, Article 25, section 2:
 
“This treaty is concluded for an unlimited duration, and each of the Contracting Parties may terminate it at any time by written notification addressed through diplomatic channels to the other Party. The termination shall come into effect two years after the date of this notification.”
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#20
(04-04-2017, 07:46 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: My guess is hardliners like Mogg etc will never be satisfied with any negotiations unless they see a return to the make believe 1950s then again in his case I suspect more like the 1850s.

I fail to see how any of this is "hardline", nor how it is in some way a return to the 2000s let alone the "make believe 1950s".

https://heatst.com/world/jacob-rees-mogg...e-freedom/

Jacob Rees Mogg is one of the most erudite MPs of the age. That he speaks with a plum in his mouth makes him as much of an upper class twat as it makes someone with, say, a Black Country accent an uneducated fool. Let me know which bits of that article you disagree with when you get a moment.
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