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Global Britain
#11
(03-29-2017, 05:08 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: I know your point about 'capitalists' is joshing but why are you and other Lefties supporting the same entity as the global financiers, and people like Charlie Mullins who wants cheap labour? Not to mention Campbell and Blair. And people like Gideon and Dave who you continue to despise as greedy, 'for the 1%' etc?

None of you seem to grasp what it actually is that you want to be a part of. They throw you a few concessions like consumer protection and you're all taken-in by it. It's painful but incredible to watch.

Just goes to show what a broad church the remain vote was as was the leave vote (it's not going to be easy to keep you all happy). 

There was an interesting article in the Economist last year saying that the political divide was becoming less between the left and right than now being between open and closed. I certainly feel more in common with people like Major and Heseltine than I did before.
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#12
(03-30-2017, 08:28 AM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(03-29-2017, 05:08 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: I know your point about 'capitalists' is joshing but why are you and other Lefties supporting the same entity as the global financiers, and people like Charlie Mullins who wants cheap labour? Not to mention Campbell and Blair. And people like Gideon and Dave who you continue to despise as greedy, 'for the 1%' etc?

None of you seem to grasp what it actually is that you want to be a part of. They throw you a few concessions like consumer protection and you're all taken-in by it. It's painful but incredible to watch.

Just goes to show what a broad church the remain vote was as was the leave vote (it's not going to be easy to keep you all happy). 

There was an interesting article in the Economist last year saying that the political divide was becoming less between the left and right than now being between open and closed. I certainly feel more in common with people like Major and Heseltine than I did before.

For the vast majority of people the idea of left and right politically means nothing. Just a lazy pigeon hole by those on the extreme edges of debates who fail to realise they have more in common with each other than the majority who just try to muddle through avoiding dogmatic nonsense along the way to the grave.
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#13
(03-30-2017, 08:54 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-30-2017, 08:28 AM)Zoltanger Wrote:
(03-29-2017, 05:08 PM)Mandown_Pilt Wrote: I know your point about 'capitalists' is joshing but why are you and other Lefties supporting the same entity as the global financiers, and people like Charlie Mullins who wants cheap labour? Not to mention Campbell and Blair. And people like Gideon and Dave who you continue to despise as greedy, 'for the 1%' etc?

None of you seem to grasp what it actually is that you want to be a part of. They throw you a few concessions like consumer protection and you're all taken-in by it. It's painful but incredible to watch.

Just goes to show what a broad church the remain vote was as was the leave vote (it's not going to be easy to keep you all happy). 

There was an interesting article in the Economist last year saying that the political divide was becoming less between the left and right than now being between open and closed. I certainly feel more in common with people like Major and Heseltine than I did before.

For the vast majority of people the idea of left and right politically means nothing. Just a lazy pigeon hole by those on the extreme edges of debates who fail to realise they have more in common with each other than the majority who just try to muddle through avoiding dogmatic nonsense along the way to the grave.

It isn't just a 'pigeonhole'. What a naive thing to say.

And, as a vehement remainer, how do you feel about your bedfellows? Do you not question why people whose sole concern is making money are so keen on the EU? Do you not wonder why the '1%' people of your mindset are so wont to mention are so for the EU?

Like I say, the EU throws-down a few scraps to satisfy the plebs, and you lap it up.
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#14
(03-30-2017, 08:28 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: There was an interesting article in the Economist last year saying that the political divide was becoming less between the left and right than now being between open and closed. I certainly feel more in common with people like Major and Heseltine than I did before.

Yet economic liberals like myself have no truck with the statist strictures beloved by Major & Heseltine. In my opinion their minds are closed to the emancipation that can be provided by the market. The rich and the powerful are generally pro-Remain as they have much more to lose from the disruption of a rigged system.

I'd be happy to make the argument that Remainers minds are closed to the possibility that there is something better than a crony capitalist soft-USSR.
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#15
(03-30-2017, 05:35 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(03-30-2017, 08:28 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: There was an interesting article in the Economist last year saying that the political divide was becoming less between the left and right than now being between open and closed. I certainly feel more in common with people like Major and Heseltine than I did before.

Yet economic liberals like myself have no truck with the statist strictures beloved by Major & Heseltine. In my opinion their minds are closed to the emancipation that can be provided by the market. The rich and the powerful are generally pro-Remain as they have much more to lose from the disruption of a rigged system.

I'd be happy to make the argument that Remainers minds are closed to the possibility that there is something better than a crony capitalist soft-USSR.

And those Remainers of the Left are too thick to wonder why Gina Miller, she of the hedge funds, is threatening to derail the Great Repeal Bill when she was (supposedly) only concerned with Parliamentary procedure over Art 50. I mean, one almost could be forgiven for suspecting that she is trying to impede Brexit in any way she can...

Up the workers, Comrades.
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#16
And as Hayek points out in "The End of Truth"

"The most effective way of making everybody serve the single system of ends toward which the social plan is directed is to make everybody believe in those ends. To make a totalitarian system function efficiently, it is not enough that everybody should be forced to work for the same ends. It is essential that the people should come to regard them as their own ends."

"Although the beliefs must be chosen for the people and imposed upon them, they must become their beliefs, a generally accepted creed which makes the individuals as far as possible act spontaneously in the way the planner wants. If the feeling of oppression in totalitarian countries is in general much less acute than most people in liberal countries imagine, this is because the totalitarian governments succeed to a high degree in making people think as they want them to."

This is, largely, the Remainer credo. The blind unquestioning faith in the European ideal despite its totalitarian instincts.
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#17
The same thickos who did not question the EU are now not supposed to question Brexit according to some.

Coming back to the title of this thread. If as many have claimed Brexit was in part an anti-globalistion vote how come we are now going for a Global Britain. India has already said we will need to accept more people to get a deal. One of my biggest gripes with Brexit is that it doesn't tie-up. It seems to be based on no ideology apart from the dislike of things.

As I said soon after the vote I truly hope to be proven wrong and to be able to thank leave voters in the future. In the same spirit if it does all go tits up I hope those who voted to leave will apologise.
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#18
(03-31-2017, 07:18 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: The same thickos who did not question the EU are now not supposed to question Brexit according to some.

Coming back to the title of this thread. If as many have claimed Brexit was in part an anti-globalistion vote how come we are now going for a Global Britain. India has already said we will need to accept more people to get a deal. One of my biggest gripes with Brexit is that it doesn't tie-up. It seems to be based on no ideology apart from the dislike of things.

As I said soon after the vote I truly hope to be proven wrong and to be able to thank leave voters in the future. In the same spirit if it does all go tits up I hope those who voted to leave will apologise.

What would there be to apologise for? There are a multitude of reasons why things could go tits up, including sheer incompetence from those at the top of our government and the EU. 

Fucking apologise. Jesus Christ
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#19
Okay  apologise maybe a bit much. You've made a fundamental choice if it goes wrong just don't take the Saido route.
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#20
The problem with that is that it is pretty hard to ascertain exactly what us leaving the EU would be responsible for going wrong/right. Sadly, this will mean that the rows will rage forevermore - or at least until there is some sort of implosion within the EU (not saying that's a certainty, before anyone starts) - as many are so entrenched with their views on it.

If I feel as though us leaving has been to the long term detriment of the UK then I'll hold my hands up and admit I was wrong. It should be a long, long time before anyone can even think of making such a judgement, though IMO.
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