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From the Express!
#31
(02-09-2017, 10:22 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 10:11 AM)Strawman Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Ok so we only bring in immigrant workers with 'skills and qualifications' so do they still do the crap jobs that the won't work, hard done by, white non working class won't do? I think it's rather naive to expect those whose entire family haven't worked for generations are suddenly going to jump at the chance at working on a farm, laundry etc for an increased minimum wage and I'm even more sceptical that they are the type of people employees will want to employ.

It may have escaped your notice, but we have had immigration for a long long time. You seem to be suggesting that it is only white people that won't do those jobs when it fact it could be previous immigrants, their descendants or the result of mixed race. I think you have shown yourself up to be both discriminatory and racist.

Whatever, I was using the statistical data that suggests that predominantly white working class (I'd argue with the term working class) areas were statistically most likely to vote for Brexit based on the news story on another thread and reported on by various news platforms. They are the demographic that is constantly spoken about being the most hard done by Brexiteers notably by UKIP etc. Obviously there are other people who don't want to work as well and the same applies will they want to do the crap jobs that they currently refuse to do?

As someone whose family are white, from working class estates I'm appalled at myself for such comments!  Big Grin

Fair enough but you see how easy it is to simply call someone racist when it could be a myriad of other reasons which may simply be economic. For what it's worth I have never seen any other sign of you being racist, far from it in fact.

Anyway to get back to the other point I didn't say simply 'skills and qualifications' I also added ' requirement and equivelance'. My main point was that I think it wrong that someone from, say Poland, should get the right of free movement when a similar person from Africa would need a visa, and in the case of farm workers would no doubt not meet the requirements to get that visa. 

Obviously it makes life easier for those in the EU but is nonetheless a discriminatory practice. In the case of free movement the EU is acting like a recognised country, which it is not. One day it may be (and I believe that is the ultimate goal, others may not), but I do not wish the UK to be a state of that country and that is why and almost everyone I know voted leave.
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#32
What he said.
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#33
(02-09-2017, 10:34 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 09:56 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I wish I hadn't played the r card. No way was I trying to say all leave voters are racist and as I said you both have valid points on the EU.

If Brexit doesn't reduce immigration significantly how many leave supporters will be happy with this?

Me for a start. It's not a question of numbers, it's a question of quality, distribution, housing, welfare and tax & benefit rules.

It is clearly fucking crazy that an unqualified EU immigrant can come here, get an NI number and instant access to the working poor benefit system whilst living in an overcrowded HIMO and leave himself open to exploitation by a gangmaster. That is the reality for a huge number of EU workers in the UK.

The constant cries from all quarters of the political spectrum are for high quality sustainable jobs, productivity improvements, high standards of health and welfare. None of you will disagree with any of that, yet by putting up with the open door on EU-immigration (and only EU immigration) there is a class of people in this country who can never aspire to any of those things & there is a class of employer in the country that has no regard for decency.

Question nicely avoided. I'll try again.

On the Saturday after the referendum one of my cricketing uncles said in front of me (a husband of an EU migrant and the father of a half immigrant daughter), "The reason we voted out was to get rid of the foreigners". Should he have said I or if the 'we' exists what percentage of the vote do you guess shared his opinion?
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#34
(02-09-2017, 10:39 AM)Strawman Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 10:22 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 10:11 AM)Strawman Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Ok so we only bring in immigrant workers with 'skills and qualifications' so do they still do the crap jobs that the won't work, hard done by, white non working class won't do? I think it's rather naive to expect those whose entire family haven't worked for generations are suddenly going to jump at the chance at working on a farm, laundry etc for an increased minimum wage and I'm even more sceptical that they are the type of people employees will want to employ.

It may have escaped your notice, but we have had immigration for a long long time. You seem to be suggesting that it is only white people that won't do those jobs when it fact it could be previous immigrants, their descendants or the result of mixed race. I think you have shown yourself up to be both discriminatory and racist.

Whatever, I was using the statistical data that suggests that predominantly white working class (I'd argue with the term working class) areas were statistically most likely to vote for Brexit based on the news story on another thread and reported on by various news platforms. They are the demographic that is constantly spoken about being the most hard done by Brexiteers notably by UKIP etc. Obviously there are other people who don't want to work as well and the same applies will they want to do the crap jobs that they currently refuse to do?

As someone whose family are white, from working class estates I'm appalled at myself for such comments!  Big Grin

Fair enough but you see how easy it is to simply call someone racist when it could be a myriad of other reasons which may simply be economic. For what it's worth I have never seen any other sign of you being racist, far from it in fact.

Anyway to get back to the other point I didn't say simply 'skills and qualifications' I also added ' requirement and equivelance'. My main point was that I think it wrong that someone from, say Poland, should get the right of free movement when a similar person from Africa would need a visa, and in the case of farm workers would no doubt not meet the requirements to get that visa. 

Obviously it makes life easier for those in the EU but is nonetheless a discriminatory practice. In the case of free movement the EU is acting like a recognised country, which it is not. One day it may be (and I believe that is the ultimate goal, others may not), but I do not wish the UK to be a state of that country and that is why and almost everyone I know voted leave.

That is a fair point post Strawman, for myself I wouldn't be averse to being part of a wider more integrated Europe (but I am as sceptical as anyone about the democratic nature of the EU as it stands) as I've said before I'm not hugely patriotic, I'm not that convinced that the UK is better served on it's own, and I'd rather my family were in a country that is economically and socially not harmed by political decisions I don't agree with or fear we may regret. Which is why I voted to remain. At present despite the links to this, that and the other, and experts wheeled on and off news platforms none of us know what will happen so now it's a case of wait and see. 

I do stand by my cynicism about UK non-workers not wishing to take on the jobs those now from around the world will be expected to do from now on. I also don't think you can ignore that immigration from anywhere will be a very hot political potato and simply broadening or moving the emphasis of where cheap labour comes from (regardless of minimum wage) will not placate many who voted out. What I think will happen is many UK non-workers will find something else / someone else to blame for their woes. It has now become fashionable to defend them as a hard done by demographic by the same people who until Brexit would have criticised them for not working and not wanting to work. It's a topsy turvy world we now inhabit since Brexit and currently not one I'm convinced will be a better one.
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#35
(02-09-2017, 09:56 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: I wish I hadn't played the r card. No way was I trying to say all leave voters are racist and as I said you both have valid points on the EU.

If Brexit doesn't reduce immigration significantly how many leave supporters will be happy with this?

Me for one. Race, immigration or whatever wasn't a factor at all for me in my decision making process. Freeing ourselves of red tape & regulation we have very little control over was.

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#36
(02-09-2017, 11:06 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: Question nicely avoided. I'll try again.

On the Saturday after the referendum one of my cricketing uncles said in front of me (a husband of an EU migrant and the father of a half immigrant daughter), "The reason we voted out was to get rid of the foreigners". Should he have said I or if the 'we' exists what percentage of the vote do you guess shared his opinion?

I've no idea, have you? I don't really care either if I'm honest. 'Some' Remain voters - whether they're aware of it or not - are explicitly in favour of de facto racist EU immigration and trade policies and 'Some' Leave voters are simply bigots. Forgive me if my response is, so what?
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#37
I still want to know who are going to do these jobs no one wants to do if it isn't someone from overseas and lets be honest that isn't going to go down too well with quite a few Brexiteers. Yes there are lots of reasons people voted out but to ignore the rather large Eric Pickles in the room that is immigration is disingenuous.

Here's a lovely true story and yes it's anecdotal and yes it's only one person but it still made think who do I think deserves access to all the good things in the UK and who doesn't.

I visited a local West Midlands bank just before the referendum and spoke to a Polish bank manager, naturally the subject got onto the impending vote and I said I wasn't sure how it will go but I hope it won't effect her in the future and I was voting to remain. We then just chatted and they told me a few days before a local British person had opened an account and they enquired as small talk what he did for a living and he replied "I don't do anything for a living, you do the work so that I don't have to" Hmm good luck getting people like him out picking fruit on an improved minimum wage.
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#38
(02-09-2017, 12:49 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Hmm good luck getting people like him out picking fruit on an improved minimum wage.

I'm not suggesting that at all. As I've said consistently, the UK is effectively at full employment and we need substantial numbers of immigrants. Just on different terms, that's all.
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#39
(02-09-2017, 12:30 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 11:06 AM)Zoltanger Wrote: Question nicely avoided. I'll try again.

On the Saturday after the referendum one of my cricketing uncles said in front of me (a husband of an EU migrant and the father of a half immigrant daughter), "The reason we voted out was to get rid of the foreigners". Should he have said I or if the 'we' exists what percentage of the vote do you guess shared his opinion?

I've no idea, have you? I don't really care either if I'm honest. 'Some' Remain voters - whether they're aware of it or not - are explicitly in favour of de facto racist EU immigration and trade policies and 'Some' Leave voters are simply bigots. Forgive me if my response is, so what?

My hunch (weakly backed up by a quick and dirty copy from wikipedia below) is that at least a third of leave voters were motivated by 'controlling' immigration. Obviously this covers a lot of opinions  but I bet a fair chunk of these will be disgruntled if immigration remains at current levels post Brexit.

"Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.”'[8]
Immediately prior to the referendum data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?' with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.[9]
In the decade before the Brexit referendum there was a significant increase in migration from EU countries, as outlined by the Migration Observatory:
'Inflows of EU nationals migrating to the UK stood at 268,000 in 2014, up from 201,000 in 2013. EU inflows were mainly flat for the 1991-2003 period, averaging close to 61,000 per year.[10]'
According to The Economist, areas that saw increases of over 200% in foreign born population between 2001 and 2014 saw a majority of voters back leave in 94% of cases.[11] The Economist concluded 'High numbers of migrants don’t bother Britons; high rates of change do.' Consistent with that notion, research suggests that areas that saw significant influx of migration from Eastern Europe following the accession of 12 mainly Eastern European countries to the European Union in 2004 saw significant growth in support for UKIP and more likely to vote to leave the European Union!"
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#40
(02-09-2017, 01:05 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(02-09-2017, 12:49 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Hmm good luck getting people like him out picking fruit on an improved minimum wage.

I'm not suggesting that at all. As I've said consistently, the UK is effectively at full employment and we need substantial numbers of immigrants. Just on different terms, that's all.

So those that don't and won't work just carry on like they were before and we carry on employing large numbers of migrant workers? I'm not sure your idea of Brexit tallies with a lot of others and therein lies the whole problem with it. No one knows what it means, what the detail will be and what the outcomes will be. Prime minister May is going end up imo trying to please everyone which could be hugely damaging for the conservatives if they can't deliver answers to the myriad of reasons people voted out.
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