Oh dear Dekka
#11
That's absolute nonsense re Ireland. The banks were on the brink and they were told they had to have the bail out or else - the EU were panicking about the knock on effects if they did not. It has been documented and covered by costly tribunals over there.

Any glance at history shows economic and physical hardship (famines in the past) lead to the rise of extremism. Secuirty issues and xenophobia always exist without communist and fascist parties coming to the fore - what switch the vote en masse is discomfort and feeling there is nothing to loseby doing so.

People could be concerned about ISIS without leaving the Tory/Labour comfort zone if they were well off. Take that away and the extremist parties flourish - clear throughout history. The growth in the EU zone has been poor for ages and there have been numerous recessions, some severe, since the UK joined.

The ECB always reacts with austerity and the current prolongued austerity and economic failure has pushed voters to the extremes across Europe. Cameron was stupid enough to choose such a time to have a Brexit vote....

For your education - the pressure Lenihan was put under by France, Germany and in particular the ECB (who failed to cooperate with the subsequent banking tribunal in Ireland). He was given no choice in the end.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=w...3943092374
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#12
Can you link me to some of the tribunals regarding the fallout? All I know of with regards to legal action is based around the bank guarantee and the fallout of the IBRC liquidation, not the agreement of the bailout programme by the Troika and the Irish government.

As for the rise in extremism, there's no doubt that the economic downturn from the fallout in 2008 created the discontent for the status quo throughout Europe but I'm on about the specific right wing populist parties that have seized power in Europe, not the more radical parties. The rise of the likes of Lega Nord, FPO, PVV, AfD etc all coincided with the migrant crisis and that is what they've been preying on, not the EU's response to the recession or debt crises.

With regards to the growth rate being poor, it's been fairly consistent across the bloc over the last 20 years bar the blip in 2012 and of course the global financial crisis, and has been higher than the growth rate of the US in that same period as seen here:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/em...=300&w=600


It's also been fairly comparable to China:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/em...=300&w=600

With regards to the referendum, I think the general legislation for it being rushed and therefore failing to replicate the Irish/Swiss methods of referenda that are fairly secure and make the decision making process more status quo vs definitive rather that status quo vs speculative were bigger mistakes from Cameron than the timing.
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#13
(06-08-2019, 05:52 PM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 02:59 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 01:10 PM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 12:06 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 07:07 AM)John Osborne’s Knuckle Wrote: Bloody Brexit!

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-48558809

Oh...

Rolleyes  (Runs away)

Oh and on the specific point made you’re going to have to explain how economic uncertainty across the globe thanks mainly to Trump led US and China trade war is going to benefit a country like ours? We will be at the mercy of international upturns and down turns even more so than now. 

Keep waving the little Union Jack in the face of common sense. Wink
What specific point, exactly, was I making?

I do not wave the Union Flag or any flag for that matter. The demise of Nation States renders it pointless and obsolete.

I would hope you would know what point you were making given you posted the thread. My reply was I fail to see how leaving Europe is going to help us protect ourselves from the global financial bumps.
I do but you don’t seem to as you are answering a different point. I didn’t infer that leaving the Union would help us avoid a global downturn. But clearly, being in the union doesn’t protect you either. Not even if you are the biggest cheese in it.

If you think that we are best served by standing alone rather than as a block with regards to the economy, culturally, politically, defensively then I completely disagree. Yes Germany is currently experiencing a down turn in trade, but now in this country we are starting to see what Brexit uncertainty ( we shall see if the actual event is better or worse) affect on this country with job losses in manufacturing. As has been said many times if you have a headache you don’t cure it by kicking yourself in the bollocks!
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#14
(06-08-2019, 06:54 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote: Can you link me to some of the tribunals regarding the fallout? All I know of with regards to legal action is based around the bank guarantee and the fallout of the IBRC liquidation, not the agreement of the bailout programme by the Troika and the Irish government.

As for the rise in extremism, there's no doubt that the economic downturn from the fallout in 2008 created the discontent for the status quo throughout Europe but I'm on about the specific right wing populist parties that have seized power in Europe, not the more radical parties. The rise of the likes of Lega Nord, FPO, PVV, AfD etc all coincided with the migrant crisis and that is what they've been preying on, not the EU's response to the recession or debt crises.

With regards to the growth rate being poor, it's been fairly consistent across the bloc over the last 20 years bar the blip in 2012 and of course the global financial crisis, and has been higher than the growth rate of the US in that same period as seen here:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/em...=300&w=600


It's also been fairly comparable to China:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/em...=300&w=600

With regards to the referendum, I think the general legislation for it being rushed and therefore failing to replicate the Irish/Swiss methods of referenda that are fairly secure and make the decision making process more status quo vs definitive rather that status quo vs speculative were bigger mistakes from Cameron than the timing.

I think it was the Flood tribunal (but there were so fecking many) and you can trawl through it if you wish - and whilst I have little respect for the competence and integrity of that FF government, it is fairly convincing that Lenihan was bullied by the EU into applying for a bailout that he was inclined not to go for to protect them against "contagion" in the banking sector.

Conversations are quoted in the tribunal in that regard and the EU snubbed it and woukd not testify or some officials turned up but did not cooperate and would only answer a few technical questions. Lenihan had sadly died at some point in the process but others backed up his accounts. Having done what the EU wanted and prevented contagion, Irish tax payers were burdened with the cost and the EU Troika were merciless. This was manifestly unfair as the reason there would have been contagion in the first place was the involvement of other EU countries banks in causing the crisis with their lending to Ireland.

But it was not politically possible for Germany etc to say to their electorate they should pay too - they would have been voted out of office. With the Brexit mess, perhaps in Ireland the EU is more popular now as the memory fades and British arrogance is always unpopular anyway in Ireland. But many still criticise the EU for its austerity and economic policies - very recently the Irish president did despite the trend in the government being the other way, united in an anti UK stance due to border concerns.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=w...0613867991

Edit: Flood tribunal was planning.... it may have just been a committee of inquiry into banking crisis without a judge's name... as i said, so many of them in Ireland at the time... cost a bomb and resolved nothing really, but did show up corruption in Ireland and also EU double standards

And Trichet' s silence was particularly despicable in the enquiry - he knows what he did - may he rot

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=w...5414499385
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#15
Fair enough, didn't realise the Troika were so ruthless with respect to pressuring the conditions for the bailout.

As for Trichet, he clearly doesn't have a conscious as shown by his shady background with Credit Lyonnais.
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#16
Bloody Brexit indeed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48579630
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#17
“The total amount of capital invested in the EU27 surged 43 per cent in the three years to the first quarter of 2019, compared with the preceding three years... This is in sharp contrast to the UK, which has experienced a 30 per cent drop in investment."

https://amp.ft.com/content/93c681ca-7c9c...ssion=true

People who voted to leave are morons, people who double down in spite of all the evidence are fucking morons.

There just is not a good side to brexit
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#18
(06-11-2019, 03:20 PM)Pontificator Wrote: “The total amount of capital invested in the EU27 surged 43 per cent in the three years to the first quarter of 2019, compared with the preceding three years... This is in sharp contrast to the UK, which has experienced a 30 per cent drop in investment."

https://amp.ft.com/content/93c681ca-7c9c...ssion=true

People who voted to leave are morons, people who double down in spite of all the evidence are fucking morons.

There just is not a good side to brexit

+1000000000000000
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