Second Referendum
#31
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.
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#32
(03-31-2019, 08:58 AM)Ofbaggy Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote: +1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.

The reason for the referendum was the internal Tory party fissure.

The reasons for the slim majority in favour to leave includes Tory Kippers/Full Kippers as well as many other anti-EU voters (including Labour) but it was also a protest "anti-Westminster" vote that wasn't really anything to do with the EU.  It was two fingers job "TO THE LOT OF YOU".  Even if the cliff-edge causes carnage, it seems the two fingers will carry on waving.  It is total mess now.

This could have been managed if May had not sided with the fanatics/idealogue Party-within-her Party (ERG) and her "red lines" before triggering Article 50 and setting in motion a process that was never anticipated.  All for the Tory party fault line.
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#33
(03-31-2019, 09:57 AM)hudds Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:58 AM)Ofbaggy Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: “Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.

The reason for the referendum was the internal Tory party fissure.

The reasons for the slim majority in favour to leave includes Tory Kippers/Full Kippers as well as many other anti-EU voters (including Labour) but it was also a protest "anti-Westminster" vote that wasn't really anything to do with the EU.  It was two fingers job "TO THE LOT OF YOU".  Even if the cliff-edge causes carnage, it seems the two fingers will carry on waving.  It is total mess now.

This could have been managed if May had not sided with the fanatics/idealogue Party-within-her Party (ERG) and her "red lines" before triggering Article 50 and setting in motion a process that was never anticipated.  All for the Tory party fault line.

Exactly. I don’t think some have been following this before Brexit was a thing.
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#34
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.
Reply
#35
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered
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#36
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
Reply
#37
(03-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
As I say, May kowtowed to nutters in her Party and before country's interests and prematurely ejaculated Article 50.  NB The EU didn't cause this mess and had no legal imperative to cushion the UK's exposed arse.  The negotiators from the UK have been totally and criminally unprepared and arrogant/negligent but it hasn't helped that any deal that could be worked out has been undermined by the likes of the DUP's handiwork.  The UK looks like a fucking basket case.
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#38
(03-31-2019, 01:25 PM)hudds Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
 "The UK looks like a fucking basket case."
Yup. The view from over here on what's going on over there is "not favourable."  The UK is a basket case, a textbook example. There is little will for any compromise whatsoever with the nutters in charge over there.
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#39
When you say "The UK is a basket case", I hope Europeans realise it's not The People, but The People that The People elected!

eg Boris f***ing Johnson, who I read this morning was 'Favourite to be the next PM'. No wonder the whole World is laughing at us with self-serving cretins like that anywhere near Parliament. He would have had his head chopped off in days gone by, and I'd have paid to do it.
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#40
(03-31-2019, 08:28 AM)Pickle Rick Wrote: I think you are right but May didn't have the backing of her party for that  (or fully for anything). MPs acting as individuals as they see best may make them feel they are doing the right thing but they have just made parliament a joke incapable of moving forward. Not a fan of May but she is dealing with a bunch of divas many of whom have deliberately tried to stop the referendum result being achieved. Those against leave have sided with the EU in the negotiations in effect and strengthened their hand in trying to force a tough deal - a united response by people and parliament after the referendum may have resulted in a better deal. That's obviously impossible given the nature of the opposing views but the division in the UK is the weakness that is being exploited and will continue to be exploited by the EU and there is no good solution now. What question would a second referendum be and if we stayed in the EU how long before it kicks off again? Better to break up now than stay in a bitter marriage and deal with the custody battles as they arise. Or better the break up had not happened in the first place but it did and that wasn't just down to UKIP and Cameron but also EU economic failings and unwillingness to reform.  No side cones out of this looking good.
This is a top post. I normally steer clear of the politics board but, like Pandora's Box, I thought I'd have a look.

To me, the Leave movement (for a few reasons), was gathering momentum as the main parties both became ridiculously removed from real people.  Everyone could see UKIP were going to take a lot of votes at the prior election but no one knew who from?  Cameron called the referendum and ensured UKIP didn't take his share. Labour (IMO) were too arrogant to take any notice of the threat from UKIP, and accordingly lost. 
Despite him having already said this would be his last term, Cameron decided he wasn't prepared to roll his sleeves up and see his decision through. This, I believe,  is unforgivable.
As soon as the result was realised, Article 50 should have been triggered with the clear statement that after 2 years we would leave under WTO terms. Then the pressure to get a better deal would be on both Parliament and the EU but would have at least, removed much of the uncertainty faced by business.
The MPs that have stubbornly refused to accept the result could have focused on standing firm to get the best deal possible.
The EU would then not have wasted 18 months haggling over the divorce bill (which surely should come much later in the negotiation?), and would be under pressure from French and German industries to strike a deal. They would even perhaps realise they should have been a little less hasty to dismiss the UK's previous requests for a better relationship.
The referendum split family loyalties and moved many to vote for the first time. A second referendum would neither change anyone's mind, nor solve anything. It would simply move the problem back down the line. An Election, likewise.
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