Second Referendum
#31
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.
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#32
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.
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#33
(03-31-2019, 08:58 AM)Ofbaggy Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote: +1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.

The reason for the referendum was the internal Tory party fissure.

The reasons for the slim majority in favour to leave includes Tory Kippers/Full Kippers as well as many other anti-EU voters (including Labour) but it was also a protest "anti-Westminster" vote that wasn't really anything to do with the EU.  It was two fingers job "TO THE LOT OF YOU".  Even if the cliff-edge causes carnage, it seems the two fingers will carry on waving.  It is total mess now.

This could have been managed if May had not sided with the fanatics/idealogue Party-within-her Party (ERG) and her "red lines" before triggering Article 50 and setting in motion a process that was never anticipated.  All for the Tory party fault line.
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#34
(03-31-2019, 09:57 AM)hudds Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:58 AM)Ofbaggy Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 08:50 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: “Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.


A slim majority of the country voted to leave. 
A no deal was always stupid and remains so. 
The government have been planning for it, and when you hear that they have the army and other wartime contingencies it makes you realise just how stupid Brexit is. 

No deal is like the nuclear deterrent it simply means we damage each other. What a grown up bargaining position to start with. 

I can’t respect or support Brexit and that’s the problem for the country, for the sake of the Tory Party’s internal politics we have opened Pandora’s box and it’s going to take at least a generation to fix. The upside is the they may have damaged themselves severely in the process. Never a bad thing.

If this was just about Tory party internal struggles then why dd 52% of the voters vote leave? if they were all conservative voters then there would have been a massive majority for May at the last election, must have missed that  Rolleyes 

All parties, with the exception of the liberal democrats, stood on a deliver leave platform so if you think the left is stronger and undamaged after this we shall see.

The reason for the referendum was the internal Tory party fissure.

The reasons for the slim majority in favour to leave includes Tory Kippers/Full Kippers as well as many other anti-EU voters (including Labour) but it was also a protest "anti-Westminster" vote that wasn't really anything to do with the EU.  It was two fingers job "TO THE LOT OF YOU".  Even if the cliff-edge causes carnage, it seems the two fingers will carry on waving.  It is total mess now.

This could have been managed if May had not sided with the fanatics/idealogue Party-within-her Party (ERG) and her "red lines" before triggering Article 50 and setting in motion a process that was never anticipated.  All for the Tory party fault line.

Exactly. I don’t think some have been following this before Brexit was a thing.
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#35
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.
Reply
#36
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered
Reply
#37
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered
True. And they won't renegotiate - they are saying take this bad (rejected 3 times by parliament) deal or no deal,  but everyone is too busy infighting to stop and point out their position is not helpful or reasonable - and may yet help give rise to a no deal. A risky strategy by them and those against leave,  which will work if it blocks Brexit but will be costly for everyone if it does not.
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#38
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
Reply
#39
(03-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
As I say, May kowtowed to nutters in her Party and before country's interests and prematurely ejaculated Article 50.  NB The EU didn't cause this mess and had no legal imperative to cushion the UK's exposed arse.  The negotiators from the UK have been totally and criminally unprepared and arrogant/negligent but it hasn't helped that any deal that could be worked out has been undermined by the likes of the DUP's handiwork.  The UK looks like a fucking basket case.
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#40
(03-31-2019, 01:25 PM)hudds Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:48 AM)strawman Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 11:43 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

That would be madness. 

There is now a deal agreed with the EU that would have to be a specific option in a ballot, something tangible rather than a notion which the first referendum was based on.

In some ways we got this the wrong way round, the Conservative party should have got its act together and come to a conclusion that as a party they believed it was best to leave the EU, and offered a referendum to the UK electorate on the best deal they could negotiate with the EU.

Would have been a great idea except the EU won't negotiate before Article 50 is triggered

Nothing to stop a majority Conservative Party campaigning on a policy of leaving the EU, triggering Article 50, negotiating a deal and then putting that deal to a referendum.

But they were not prepared to come to a definitive policy on Europe .
 "The UK looks like a fucking basket case."
Yup. The view from over here on what's going on over there is "not favourable."  The UK is a basket case, a textbook example. There is little will for any compromise whatsoever with the nutters in charge over there.
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