Second Referendum
#21
Sorry and I really do not understand the finer workings of politics but why are people so obsessed with the notion that the moment we leave the EU we will be incapable of sorting out anything ourselves and the whole country will suffer catastrophic economical & social disaster and dissappear into the abyss never to be seen again,,, I just don't get it myself even though I know it will anything put plain sailing.
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#22
(03-30-2019, 05:38 PM)TETLEY74 Wrote: Sorry and I really do not understand the finer workings of politics but why are people so obsessed with the notion that the moment we leave the EU we will be incapable of sorting out anything ourselves and the whole country will suffer catastrophic economical & social disaster and dissappear into the abyss never to be seen again,,, I just don't get it myself even though I know it will anything put plain sailing.

As a member of an existing trading bloc we have trade deals in place the we will lose and have to work to, in effect, get back to where we already are.  You can argue that, absent deals after a cliff edge, we could be totally free trade, like idealogues like Proth would risk but that leaves exporters completely exposed and sections of UK prodution also undermined. We have absolutlely nothing to negotiate with.   The Brexiteers had no plans because they didn't think they would win.  As I have observed, even arch Brexiteers like Gove have woken up given the size of the task at his own dept, DEFRA. 

It won't be the end of the world if we crash out, but it will be very painful.


Why do YOU want to leave the EU, by the way?
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#23
(03-30-2019, 08:53 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Ok so the argument against a second referendum is that it’s ‘anti-democratic’. How exactly is having a further vote on the specifics of Brexit, having learnt a great deal more about what it entails anti-democratic? Surely the argument for leaving has been comprehensively won after thee years? So why are so many leavers terrified it seems at giving the final seal of approval back to the ahem people?

Also if a majority of people decided after a vote to put their hands into a fire, how exactly is that the right thing to do? The bizarre wish to make our lives more difficult ‘cuz we voted for it’ suggests we have a country full of masochists.

Let’s say we did have a 2nd referendum and the vote was exactly replicated, do you think remainers would be any more happy or likely to accept the result?
If it went the other way but just as narrowly, wouldn’t leavers be entirely justified in agitating very forcefully for another referendum?  
A 2nd vote will do nothing to resolve the issue and division
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#24
If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive, I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.
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#25
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.
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#26
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.
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#27
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.
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#28
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.
+1

Our starting position should have been we are leaving with what would have effectively been no deal and had the balls to stick to it and for once let the EU come to us with their proposals, we really sometimes neglect to remember that we are/were one of the stronger members and the EU would have been very keen for us to leave on a good basis.

What we did instead was spend 2 years "agreeing" what they, the EU, wanted from our weak starting point. I'm not going to get into why I voted to leave but I can assure you it had nothing to do with free movement, although I concede that this was a factor for some.

The issue with another referendum is that the leave vote will be split between different options if there is any other choice than between in or out as the rules of "in" are already clearly defined.

The remainers calling anyone who voted out or would want a no deal a "swivel eyed loon" shows how a 2nd referendum will not solve anything now. I find it odd that people who want a strong independent United Kingdom are now treated like this.

They needed us as much as we should have the EU as a trading partner, we just don't need them setting rules and regulations based on the needs of 27 member states, or indeed the needs of France and Germany rather than in the best interests of the UK.

The way party politics on all sides has been the key factor over the last 3 years that will forever broken our parliamentary system and for me that is the outcome that has weakened us the most in the eyes of the EU and the world.
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#29
(03-31-2019, 08:14 AM)fbaggy Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:51 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:38 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:14 AM)Fido Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 06:17 PM)fbaggy Wrote: If we did have another referendum, which I am personally against as I think it will be even more divisive,  I think you would pretty much have to either have the same binary choice as before in or out.

this will certainly mean having to have EU parliament elections and anyone who thinks another referendum will put an end to the issue is naive in the extreme.

+1. Three years wasted by not starting to prepare for no deal from day one.

“Oh look a cliff, let’s plan for jumping off it. It’ll fine we have planned for it.”

Only the swivel eyed UKIP (now called the Conservative Party) and those rich enough for it not to affect them would vote for such an eventuality.

1) The country voted to come out.
2) No deal was a possible eventuality.

So why would you not prepare for it? The very reason we are looking over a cliff is because this hasn’t happened. I’m not saying no deal is necessarily the way to go but to start from a negotiating position of “let’s keep everything the same and just start to take out the bits we don’t want” was akin to bending over a table and waiting for the EU.
+1

Our starting position should have been we are leaving with what would have effectively been no deal and had the balls to stick to it and for once let the EU come to us with their proposals, we really sometimes neglect to remember that we are/were one of the stronger members and the EU would have been very keen for us to leave on a good basis.

What we did instead was spend 2 years "agreeing" what they, the EU, wanted from our weak starting point. I'm not going to get into why I voted to leave but I can assure you it had nothing to do with free movement, although I concede that this was a factor for some.

The issue with another referendum is that the leave vote will be split between different options if there is any other choice than between in or out as the rules of "in" are already clearly defined.

The remainers calling anyone who voted out or would want a no deal a "swivel eyed loon" shows how a 2nd referendum will not solve anything now. I find it odd that people who want a strong independent United Kingdom are now treated like this.

They needed us as much as we should have the EU as a trading partner, we just don't need them setting rules and regulations based on the needs of 27 member states, or indeed the needs of France and Germany rather than in the best interests of the UK.

The way party politics on all sides has been the key factor over the last 3 years that will forever broken our parliamentary system and for me that is the outcome that has weakened us the most in the eyes of the EU and the world.

Could be resolved by preference voting
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#30
I think you are right but May didn't have the backing of her party for that  (or fully for anything). MPs acting as individuals as they see best may make them feel they are doing the right thing but they have just made parliament a joke incapable of moving forward. Not a fan of May but she is dealing with a bunch of divas many of whom have deliberately tried to stop the referendum result being achieved. Those against leave have sided with the EU in the negotiations in effect and strengthened their hand in trying to force a tough deal - a united response by people and parliament after the referendum may have resulted in a better deal. That's obviously impossible given the nature of the opposing views but the division in the UK is the weakness that is being exploited and will continue to be exploited by the EU and there is no good solution now. What question would a second referendum be and if we stayed in the EU how long before it kicks off again? Better to break up now than stay in a bitter marriage and deal with the custody battles as they arise. Or better the break up had not happened in the first place but it did and that wasn't just down to UKIP and Cameron but also EU economic failings and unwillingness to reform.  No side cones out of this looking good.
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