Second Referendum
#1
Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.
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#2
(03-29-2019, 10:34 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.

What makes you think that if there was a second referendum and leave won again that the result would be accepted any more than it was the first time.
The important part of your post is when you say that when you lose a vote you have to learn to accept the result.
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#3
(03-29-2019, 11:37 PM)GMBaggie Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 10:34 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.

What makes you think that if there was a second referendum and leave won again that the result would be accepted any more than it was the first time.
The important part of your post is when you say that when you lose a vote you have to learn to accept the result.

No matter how idiotic...
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#4
(03-29-2019, 11:46 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 11:37 PM)GMBaggie Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 10:34 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.

What makes you think that if there was a second referendum and leave won again that the result would be accepted any more than it was the first time.
The important part of your post is when you say that when you lose a vote you have to learn to accept the result.

No matter how idiotic...

How do you know.
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#5
As a leaver even I’m beginning to think it’s not going to happen. Ultimately we can say we won the referendum and we can argue the political points to and fro.
The real problem for leavers is that there are multiple versions of leave. No deal, customs union, Norway 2, labours plan, etc, versus a single idea of staying in. Basically leave is split into a myriad of choices hardly anyone would be pleased with, versus something 48% of the population would be happy to accept.
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#6
(03-30-2019, 12:08 AM)Sotv Wrote: As a leaver even I’m beginning to think it’s not going to happen. Ultimately we can say we won the referendum and we can argue the political points to and fro.
The real problem for leavers is that there are multiple versions of leave. No deal, customs union, Norway 2, labours plan, etc, versus a single idea of staying in. Basically leave is split into a myriad of choices hardly anyone would be pleased with, versus something 48% of the population would be happy to accept.

Leave being split isn't the problem, it's the contradictory red lines that we've been negotiating around that mean May's deal is the only one left.

If Parliament had issued independent impact assessments and then voted with a ranked system a preferred strategy of negotiation around that then maybe we'd have gotten somewhere, but no we had to rush into activating Article 50 and then have an election which made things worse.
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#7
Sorry this might be a bit simplistic but I'm still at a lost to understand that if we leave the EU we are almost certainly going to implode and all go to hell in a hand cart according to the remainders,, USA, China, Canada, Australia,  New Zealand, Japan to name but a few all seem to trade with the world ok without being in the EU, why is it just us who will crash and burn, does anyone seriously think if we leave with no deal that France(£35billion in exports to us) and Germany(UK is their largest export market in the EU) are going to do anything to jeopardise that amount of trade without seeking a deal!!, genuine question.
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#8
(03-30-2019, 12:12 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(03-30-2019, 12:08 AM)Sotv Wrote: As a leaver even I’m beginning to think it’s not going to happen. Ultimately we can say we won the referendum and we can argue the political points to and fro.
The real problem for leavers is that there are multiple versions of leave. No deal, customs union, Norway 2, labours plan, etc, versus a single idea of staying in. Basically leave is split into a myriad of choices hardly anyone would be pleased with, versus something 48% of the population would be happy to accept.

 we had to rush into activating Article 50 and then have an election which made things worse.

May rushed into it to assuage the fanatical fantastists in her Party.  It could have been managed for the UK, but no.  It was about her party.

(03-30-2019, 12:30 AM)TETLEY74 Wrote: Sorry this might be a bit simplistic but I'm still at a lost to understand that if we leave the EU we are almost certainly going to implode and all go to hell in a hand cart according to the remainders,, USA, China, Canada, Australia,  New Zealand, Japan to name but a few all seem to trade with the world ok without being in the EU, why is it just us who will crash and burn, does anyone seriously think if we leave with no deal that France(£35billion in exports to us) and Germany(UK is their largest export market in the EU) are going to do anything to jeopardise that amount of trade without seeking a deal!!, genuine question.

The fact that the EU (well, the Member States) haven't rushed to the Remainers' claim about the "easiest deal ever" (and that the UK holds all the cards) might make you pause.  The situation is that the UK has been in a bloc that has negotiated with other countries and blocs over the years and has not had to do anything like it with any person not dead or long retired.  Dream on.
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#9
(03-29-2019, 11:37 PM)GMBaggie Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 10:34 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.

What makes you think that if there was a second referendum and leave won again that the result would be accepted any more than it was the first time.
The important part of your post is when you say that when you lose a vote you have to learn to accept the result.

No you don't. Democracy is absolutely about being able to change your mind. There simply is no Brexit that gives us what we've got now. There was no plan before the referendum for leaving, the stark reality of consequences of leaving are now apparent and it should be stopped. It is because it is such a croc of shit that parliament cannot pull the trigger and shoot us all in the head.
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#10
(03-30-2019, 07:12 AM)Pontificator Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 11:37 PM)GMBaggie Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 10:34 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Have been against this but am fast coming to the conclusion that it may be the only answer to the current impasse. The current Parliament seem unable to come to a resolution of this issue and there is no guarantee that if we held a General Election, that the new parliament would be anymore capable of finding a resolution than the current one.

We would need to insure that both no deal and remain were on the ballot sheet along with the deal negotiated with the EU.

Don't think it will be a long term solution, only time and superseding  events can do that, but in the short term it will provide an answer.

Whatever happens in the short term, the issue of our future relationship will be at the heart of the next General Election.

Sad that it has come to this because for democracy to work, when we lose we need to accept the result. I heard someone on a podcast say of democracy that it is chaotic and a pain in the ass, but the alternative  is fascism.

What makes you think that if there was a second referendum and leave won again that the result would be accepted any more than it was the first time.
The important part of your post is when you say that when you lose a vote you have to learn to accept the result.

No you don't. Democracy is absolutely about being able to change your mind. There simply is no Brexit that gives us what we've got now. There was no plan before the referendum for leaving, the stark reality of consequences of leaving are now apparent and it should be stopped. It is because it is such a croc of shit that parliament cannot pull the trigger and shoot us all in the head.

Democracy is about being able to change your mind but after implementing the result of a vote. There would, quite rightly, be absolute uproar if we voted in a Labour/Tory or other Government and then people said we don't like that. lets vote again.
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