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DK and the Shawcross Redemption.
#11
(12-12-2018, 08:22 PM)Peachy Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 08:12 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 07:33 PM)Wotty Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 06:41 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote: I agree with every word of that, mate.

We were, and I believe have continued to be the same when it comes to diving, and to be honest it does my head in. 

Our players would instantly spring to their feet after being fouled, saving the opposition from deserved bookings/sendings off time and time again. 

They in return would roll round and round until the yellow card came out for our player. God knows how many times Whelan got booked with his first challenge of the game, which left him on a knife edge for the next 85 minutes.

Other than the Ramsey incident, I can only remember one really bad challenge from a Stoke player in the Premier League, when Andy Wilkinson needlessly took out a Fulham player in the last minute of a game - this was the incident which sparked the bad feeling between Pulis and Hughes, yet we had this reputation as thugs, largely because the media wouldn't let anyone forget young Aaron's leg.

The Pulis gamesmanship took the shape of pushing, pulling and time wasting. I can only think the no diving thing was Pulis wanting people to see how hard our players were. That was how he was as a player. You can only imagine what he thinks of some of the pretty boys and their shaped eyebrows nowadays.

Having said all that, Kitson isn't the first player to comment on how Pulis wound his players up before games. Danny Murphy went further when he was a Fulham player, and as good as said that Pulis sent his team out to hurt opponents. You'd expect Kitson and Murphy would know more than us, but much as I never liked Pulis, I still felt the comments were unfair at the time.

On Shawcross, I could write a book about the completely false impression outsiders have about him. Sometimes I think I should be on his payroll the amount of time I've spent defending him. 

His tackle on Ramsey was unnecessarily hard, but part of it was, I think, a determination to get to the ball first after his shirt was pulled by Bendtner directly as he was running for the ball. The tackle is on you-tube and you can actually see that he tries to pull out of the tackle at the last minute. 

Watch the tackle, and then watch Johnny Evans' leg-breaker on Holden, then ask why Shawcross' reputation is forever sullied while the Evans incident is long forgetten and never mentioned in the media.

Shawcross' glory days are now long gone, and in truth, his back injuries over the past three years have sadly rendered him not really good enough for us even at this level. He just isn't mobile enough. But I swear that for a good few years he was easily, after John Terry, the best and most consistent centre back in the country. His disastrous debut for England doesn't change my opinion that he should have had 20 caps before that happened.

Mention of Shawcross gets me in full-on rant mode. He should be far better thought of nationally than he is.
Good points all round

Just got to give a special mention to Charlie Adam. Hmmmm

 Charlie has a reputation, and I don’t deny he can rough players up, but I still can’t remember anyone limping off from one of his challenges. 
Stamp on Giroud. Terrible tackle on Bale when he was at Liverpool. Sending off on Rooney for your lot. There's a few. There's a whole article the Guardian did on his role of shame.
I know he wore the red and white DK but the guy was /is an A grade arsehole.

The stamp on Giroud was either accidental or naughty, but didn’t do any harm to the player. As you say, the Bale tackle was before his time at Stoke, and Rooney was also fine and said afterwards that it shouldn’t have been a sending off. 

I’m not going to try to defend every one of Charlie’s transgressions, particularly if you’ve got a list in front of you  Big Grin. I know Charlie can be a wrong ‘un at times, and as I acknowledged in my first post, players like Kitson and Murphy have insider views that differ from mine.

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#12
(12-12-2018, 08:30 PM)swordfish Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 08:22 PM)Peachy Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 08:12 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 07:33 PM)Wotty Wrote:
(12-12-2018, 06:41 PM)Dreamkiller Wrote: I agree with every word of that, mate.

We were, and I believe have continued to be the same when it comes to diving, and to be honest it does my head in. 

Our players would instantly spring to their feet after being fouled, saving the opposition from deserved bookings/sendings off time and time again. 

They in return would roll round and round until the yellow card came out for our player. God knows how many times Whelan got booked with his first challenge of the game, which left him on a knife edge for the next 85 minutes.

Other than the Ramsey incident, I can only remember one really bad challenge from a Stoke player in the Premier League, when Andy Wilkinson needlessly took out a Fulham player in the last minute of a game - this was the incident which sparked the bad feeling between Pulis and Hughes, yet we had this reputation as thugs, largely because the media wouldn't let anyone forget young Aaron's leg.

The Pulis gamesmanship took the shape of pushing, pulling and time wasting. I can only think the no diving thing was Pulis wanting people to see how hard our players were. That was how he was as a player. You can only imagine what he thinks of some of the pretty boys and their shaped eyebrows nowadays.

Having said all that, Kitson isn't the first player to comment on how Pulis wound his players up before games. Danny Murphy went further when he was a Fulham player, and as good as said that Pulis sent his team out to hurt opponents. You'd expect Kitson and Murphy would know more than us, but much as I never liked Pulis, I still felt the comments were unfair at the time.

On Shawcross, I could write a book about the completely false impression outsiders have about him. Sometimes I think I should be on his payroll the amount of time I've spent defending him. 

His tackle on Ramsey was unnecessarily hard, but part of it was, I think, a determination to get to the ball first after his shirt was pulled by Bendtner directly as he was running for the ball. The tackle is on you-tube and you can actually see that he tries to pull out of the tackle at the last minute. 

Watch the tackle, and then watch Johnny Evans' leg-breaker on Holden, then ask why Shawcross' reputation is forever sullied while the Evans incident is long forgetten and never mentioned in the media.

Shawcross' glory days are now long gone, and in truth, his back injuries over the past three years have sadly rendered him not really good enough for us even at this level. He just isn't mobile enough. But I swear that for a good few years he was easily, after John Terry, the best and most consistent centre back in the country. His disastrous debut for England doesn't change my opinion that he should have had 20 caps before that happened.

Mention of Shawcross gets me in full-on rant mode. He should be far better thought of nationally than he is.
Good points all round

Just got to give a special mention to Charlie Adam. Hmmmm

 Charlie has a reputation, and I don’t deny he can rough players up, but I still can’t remember anyone limping off from one of his challenges. 
Stamp on Giroud. Terrible tackle on Bale when he was at Liverpool. Sending off on Rooney for your lot. There's a few. There's a whole article the Guardian did on his role of shame.
I know he wore the red and white DK but the guy was /is an A grade arsehole.

The point I tried to make was that Wenger is revered like a saint and Shawcross branded as the devil. Purely based on who they represent.  Remember when Guardiola screamed about Matty Phillips and Klopp said West Brom were so physical he thought of calling the police? Both statements were ridiculously untrue and unfair.

The media treatment of Phillips for one tackle was absolutely disgusting. AFAIK, he's never shown any signs of being a "dirty" player, yet was hounded for one tackle, all over the media and it absolutely broke him, pretty much until BD took over.
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#13
Good point about the impact on Philips confidence.

The Foster thing on goal kicks is interesting. Brad Friedel at Villa under MON was far worse than Foster and his teams used to rely heavily on Young falling over and putting the ball on Carew's head. You can now replace them with Grealish and Abraham FWIW.

Someone on my FB shared the video of the Villa 5-1 over Blues in the build up to their real Derby. Carew's header was their 36th set piece goal of the season, well before the last game. We got slaughtered for being a set piece team and it the label still gets used readily, e.g. Swansea. MON's teams were in a different league for that and for gamesmanship/outright cheating but never suffered the same negativity.
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