The Strange Death of Europe
#41
(01-13-2021, 05:32 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Because we decided to let the Saudis run the mosques here and they have been pushing their ultra-hardline fanatical sect, to the surprise to nobody.

It's fine though, we'll ignore them doing this and sell them weapons to bomb the shit out of Yemen.

+1

(01-13-2021, 01:14 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Interesting Proth that Christian fundamentalism inNI has not seen violence. I would imagine a fair few victims of the troubles in NI would disagree with you.
I would agree with you though, on the face of it the violence associated with NI had everything to do with religion, but the truth is the allocation of political power and resources were the prime movers of the violence.

The same is true with violence associated with Islamic fundamentalism. For Example the rise of Isis had more to do with the loss of power and access to resource of the former supporters of Saddam Hussein, than any overarching desire to spread the word of Allah. That's why the military leadership of Isis were almost all former members of the Revolutionary Guard.

Hmm. Not sure I agree with all that.

There's no dividing line between politics and religion anywhere in Islam (since the death of Modern Turkey). Political power and religion (and often sectarianism) go hand in hand - most often those who suffer most at the hands of Muslims are other Muslims. I don't think we should shy away from calling out Islam for the backward misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, anti-culture-culture that it is. Until we do, and mock it as much it as some extreme tenets of Christianity then I doubt we'll make much progress.

I'd love to see British Salafists face the same audience Nick Griffn did on QT - that destroyed the idiot tendency on the right for a decade or more.
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#42
(01-13-2021, 04:46 PM)Tom Joad Wrote:
Ossian Wrote:
Protheroe Wrote:Yes it has, but in Europe it had an Enlightenment. In Europe the state is, broadly, separated from the church.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest the Capitol insurgents were Christian fundamentalists, though I take you point on abortion.

If that's a critical factor (and it almost certainly is, arguably the critical factor) it represents - for want of a better expression - a 'head start' for western democracies of around three centuries. Not much in the context of the evolution and development of cultures.

I'm not arguing that Islamic societies are 'behind'; just that they are, for reasons too complex to bullet point on a message board, in a different position on the curve. But, having argued that three centuries is the blink of an eye in the context of the development of Homo Sapiens, I'll also concede that it's a much more significant disparity when it comes to homogenisation of societies.

One of my regular maintenance calls is a mosque. I rarely encounter anyone although I regularly feel like a fish out of water when it's prayer time (which for convenience I've learned to avoid). When I do bump into anyone, we exchange a pleasant Hello, and that is about it as understandably they are there for spiritual purposes and I just want the job completed. I did have cause to spend some time in the entrance hallway once though and was more than a little shocked at the absolute vengeance message on the preachy notices. The gist was unrelenting suffering for non believers.  I got the job because I do work for a few of the more well heeled members there and although they are far from what I would call westernised, they were born and well educated here. As I say, I was quite shocked at the bluntness of the message.
Just for balance, as a child I was made to go to church regularly, as an adult I've frequented Buddhist centres and I have had occasion to go to Sikh Temples. Only in Islam have I encountered this kind of unforgiving attitude and it doesn't sit well with me.

There's some weird extreme "Chriistian" stuff West Scotland that is very unpleasant.
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#43
With respect Hudds, that's a bit of a deflection. A few outdated ideas in declining, often elderly congregations in a remote part of the UK doesn't anywhere near compare with the widespread extreme teachings given out and often focused on the young. Years ago I went to learn a trade at what we used to call Night Classes. Many of my classmates were of Pakistani/ Bangladeshi origin although they would (quite rightly) simply class themselves as Brummies.  We'd all go out together, go to the pub (admittedly, one or two didn't drink) and we all got on really well. I have only managed to stay in touch with one of these guys and he gets hot under the collar about the religious indoctrination of modern UK Islam.
Personally, I noticed the big change in attitude came with the last Iraq war. Up until then, by and large, this was a very harmonious city. Almost overnight and in the time since, not so much. Just my experience anyway.
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#44
(01-13-2021, 06:55 PM)Tom Joad Wrote: With respect Hudds, that's a bit of a deflection. A few outdated ideas in declining, often elderly congregations in a remote part of the UK doesn't anywhere near compare with the widespread extreme teachings given out and often focused on the young. Years ago I went to learn a trade at what we used to call Night Classes. Many of my classmates were of Pakistani/ Bangladeshi origin although they would (quite rightly) simply class themselves as Brummies.  We'd all go out together, go to the pub (admittedly, one or two didn't drink) and we all got on really well. I have only managed to stay in touch with one of these guys and he gets hot under the collar about the religious indoctrination of modern UK Islam.
Personally, I noticed the big change in attitude came with the last Iraq war. Up until then, by and large, this was a very harmonious city. Almost overnight and in the time since, not so much. Just my experience anyway.

Not deflecting anyhting, TJ.  We are talking about Glasgow (poss Edinburgh) and main towns where the bigotry and emnity is savage.  I have seen it up close recently and was appalled.
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#45
hudds Wrote:
Tom Joad Wrote:With respect Hudds, that's a bit of a deflection. A few outdated ideas in declining, often elderly congregations in a remote part of the UK doesn't anywhere near compare with the widespread extreme teachings given out and often focused on the young. Years ago I went to learn a trade at what we used to call Night Classes. Many of my classmates were of Pakistani/ Bangladeshi origin although they would (quite rightly) simply class themselves as Brummies.  We'd all go out together, go to the pub (admittedly, one or two didn't drink) and we all got on really well. I have only managed to stay in touch with one of these guys and he gets hot under the collar about the religious indoctrination of modern UK Islam.
Personally, I noticed the big change in attitude came with the last Iraq war. Up until then, by and large, this was a very harmonious city. Almost overnight and in the time since, not so much. Just my experience anyway.

Not deflecting anyhting, TJ.  We are talking about Glasgow (poss Edinburgh) and main towns where the bigotry and emnity is savage.  I have seen it up close recently and was appalled.
Well all I can say is I've scoured google for Christian extremism in Scotland and found it uneventful. I respect your opinion but it isn't my experience that this is in any way a growing threat similar to the one this thread is describing. To ignore this threat in the interest of multi cultural liberalism will cause more problems than it solves. In the interests of living harmoniously, any extremism in any form (Christiam, Muslim, whatever), should be highlighted and subjected to the ridicule the ideology deserves.
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#46
(01-13-2021, 07:48 PM)Tom Joad Wrote:
hudds Wrote:
Tom Joad Wrote:With respect Hudds, that's a bit of a deflection. A few outdated ideas in declining, often elderly congregations in a remote part of the UK doesn't anywhere near compare with the widespread extreme teachings given out and often focused on the young. Years ago I went to learn a trade at what we used to call Night Classes. Many of my classmates were of Pakistani/ Bangladeshi origin although they would (quite rightly) simply class themselves as Brummies.  We'd all go out together, go to the pub (admittedly, one or two didn't drink) and we all got on really well. I have only managed to stay in touch with one of these guys and he gets hot under the collar about the religious indoctrination of modern UK Islam.
Personally, I noticed the big change in attitude came with the last Iraq war. Up until then, by and large, this was a very harmonious city. Almost overnight and in the time since, not so much. Just my experience anyway.

Not deflecting anyhting, TJ.  We are talking about Glasgow (poss Edinburgh) and main towns where the bigotry and emnity is savage.  I have seen it up close recently and was appalled.
Well all I can say is I've scoured google for Christian extremism in Scotland and found it uneventful. I respect your opinion but it isn't my experience that this is in any way a growing threat similar to the one this thread is describing. To ignore this threat in the interest of multi cultural liberalism will cause more problems than it solves. In the interests of living harmoniously, any extremism in any form (Christiam, Muslim, whatever), should be highlighted and subjected to the ridicule the ideology deserves.

First thing I found - Scotland's Shame:  https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics...e_8905.htm

It is rife and well-known.  Remember the bullet for Lennon?  My mate got badly beaten for being a wealthy left footer.

I'm not comparing like for like with Islamic intemperance - merely observing the toxicity of "native" religion that hasn't been eradicated.
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#47
It's more prevalent in the west of Scotland - interwoven with the 'old firm' rivalry. Less the case in the east of Scotland, although there is a more muted sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibbees rivalry. We rarely encounter it in the Highlands, which is almost as separate from the central belt as Scotland itself is from England.

Most Scots of my acquaintance are just incredulous that sectarianism still flourishes to the extent that it does. I have to say - and this runs contrary to popular conceptions - that we've found Celtic supporters to be a far more affable bunch than their dour, west of the city, counterparts and always happy to swap football chat with a sassenach.
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#48
Ossian Wrote:It's more prevalent in the west of Scotland - interwoven with the 'old firm' rivalry. Less the case in the east of Scotland, although there is a more muted sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibbees rivalry. We rarely encounter it in the Highlands, which is almost as separate from the central belt as Scotland itself is from England.

Most Scots of my acquaintance are just incredulous that sectarianism still flourishes to the extent that it does. I have to say - and this runs contrary to popular conceptions - that we've found Celtic supporters to be a far more affable bunch than their dour, west of the city, counterparts and always happy to swap football chat with a sassenach.

That is my experience too although even at it's absolute worst, this sectarianism is virtually insignificant compared to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism among younger generations of those born here and in no way compares. We have made ourselves a problem that really didn't exist before.
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