How much do you dislike Trump?
#11
(10-09-2020, 10:50 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:31 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 09:25 AM)Big Daddy Cool Wrote: He's an idiot who shouldn't be president but entertaining for sure.

Instead of hating Trump, people should think about what made him president in the first place. Why did American people feel the need to vote for him.

Spot on.

Aside from the electoral system, the fact is elections are won by floating voters in the centre ground. Its those voters who vote for him, despite not liking him (he's their least worst option). But unfortunately too many scream "why have people voted form him", instead of looking at the reason the centre ground voted for him as 'least worst', as this is the reason he got in (and may yet still do so this time).

Too many see the nutters in Trump hats on the telly and think this is a typical voter, but these are not the people that make an difference to the election. Its the floating vote in swing states that wins/loses an election.

Clinton received 3m more people’s votes than Trump he won because of the bizarre electoral college system. He appealed to people’s beliefs not rational thought just like has happened over here. Popularism is a dangerous and childish way to govern and to pander to those base emotions is not a way to run a country. Ironically the college system was set up to stop populist / belief over rational thought decisions from happening. In practice it seems it doesn’t really work.

That's the same in a lot of systems. You can theoretically win less votes in the UK and still have a majority. But the fact is, whatever the system, US elections are won by the floating vote, the centre ground. Sure plenty of voters were sucked in by beliefs, same as they are here, but there are lots of voters in America who votes for him as least worst. And these are the centre ground, the ones that don't like him, but still voted republican, and won him the election.

In fact to simplify it in the way you have Dekka is precisely one of the reasons he got in. There's plenty of voters who dislike Trump but felt they couldn't vote democrat for reasons of policy. To simply lump in everyone as getting taken in by populism without looking more closely at policies and the reasons the centre ground were put off voting democrat is actually one of the main reasons Trump won. (and similarly Brexit and Johnson winning in the UK).

What isn't the same is the means of which the system is applied to distribute votes within the electoral college, legal gerrymandering of districts to manipulate the worth of votes and the fact that the President is head of state and not a senator or representative so using that means to elect them is stupid.
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#12
(10-09-2020, 10:50 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:31 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 09:25 AM)Big Daddy Cool Wrote: He's an idiot who shouldn't be president but entertaining for sure.

Instead of hating Trump, people should think about what made him president in the first place. Why did American people feel the need to vote for him.

Spot on.

Aside from the electoral system, the fact is elections are won by floating voters in the centre ground. Its those voters who vote for him, despite not liking him (he's their least worst option). But unfortunately too many scream "why have people voted form him", instead of looking at the reason the centre ground voted for him as 'least worst', as this is the reason he got in (and may yet still do so this time).

Too many see the nutters in Trump hats on the telly and think this is a typical voter, but these are not the people that make an difference to the election. Its the floating vote in swing states that wins/loses an election.

Clinton received 3m more people’s votes than Trump he won because of the bizarre electoral college system. He appealed to people’s beliefs not rational thought just like has happened over here. Popularism is a dangerous and childish way to govern and to pander to those base emotions is not a way to run a country. Ironically the college system was set up to stop populist / belief over rational thought decisions from happening. In practice it seems it doesn’t really work.

That's the same in a lot of systems. You can theoretically win less votes in the UK and still have a majority. But the fact is, whatever the system, US elections are won by the floating vote, the centre ground. Sure plenty of voters were sucked in by beliefs, same as they are here, but there are lots of voters in America who votes for him as least worst. And these are the centre ground, the ones that don't like him, but still voted republican, and won him the election.

In fact to simplify it in the way you have Dekka is precisely one of the reasons he got in. There's plenty of voters who dislike Trump but felt they couldn't vote democrat for reasons of policy. To simply lump in everyone as getting taken in by populism without looking more closely at policies and the reasons the centre ground were put off voting democrat is actually one of the main reasons Brexit won, Trump won, and Johnson won.

He won on a ticket of a particular type of patriotism, making America great again and to be kind xenophobia. This was all backed up with a torrent of ahem ‘fake news’. What great policies did he have? What awful policies did Clinton have? Sounds like a familiar tactic, I wonder what other country adopted similar tactics? Popularism is teenage tantrum way of running a country.
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#13
(10-09-2020, 10:23 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: He's not just a 'tool' or an 'idiot' though. George Bush was an idiot, David Cameron was a tool. Trump is a racist, RAPIST, tax-avoiding, delusional, science-denying utter utter scumbag who endorses white supremacists and is one of the main reasons 210k US citizens are dead from covid. He should be in a secure psychiatric unit not the white house. A psychiatrist friend said to me that if anyone else had said what he said in his recent speech (about having the best body ever, recovering from covid quicker than anyone and having 'USA' instead of 'DNA') they'd be sectioned immediately.

See this is what I mean when I said people were 'frothing at the mouth' about his election. Throwing out all these accusations, but with very little back-up; they may all be true, but the words have been devalued as people throw them around willy-nilly these days.

As for his endorsement of white supremacists, the video clips I've seen see him denounce them. Yes, even from the debate he had with Biden - he does denounce them, but people were already talking over him because they assumed he wouldn't.

At the end of the day, the easiest way to get rid of him is let him talk. Give him fair coverage. Explain what he is doing, and why he is doing it. Factual stuff, like why he tweets about specific companies (to manipulate the stock market, etc). Instead of just labelling him with accusations, tell people what he is doing. Tell people why. Give him enough rope to hang himself and provide an alternative. It's that simple, but people would rather brand people with words than actually win the argument - such as Clinton's 'basket of deplorables' comment.
Refugee from westbrom.com
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#14
(10-09-2020, 11:23 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:50 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:31 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 09:25 AM)Big Daddy Cool Wrote: He's an idiot who shouldn't be president but entertaining for sure.

Instead of hating Trump, people should think about what made him president in the first place. Why did American people feel the need to vote for him.

Spot on.

Aside from the electoral system, the fact is elections are won by floating voters in the centre ground. Its those voters who vote for him, despite not liking him (he's their least worst option). But unfortunately too many scream "why have people voted form him", instead of looking at the reason the centre ground voted for him as 'least worst', as this is the reason he got in (and may yet still do so this time).

Too many see the nutters in Trump hats on the telly and think this is a typical voter, but these are not the people that make an difference to the election. Its the floating vote in swing states that wins/loses an election.

Clinton received 3m more people’s votes than Trump he won because of the bizarre electoral college system. He appealed to people’s beliefs not rational thought just like has happened over here. Popularism is a dangerous and childish way to govern and to pander to those base emotions is not a way to run a country. Ironically the college system was set up to stop populist / belief over rational thought decisions from happening. In practice it seems it doesn’t really work.

That's the same in a lot of systems. You can theoretically win less votes in the UK and still have a majority. But the fact is, whatever the system, US elections are won by the floating vote, the centre ground. Sure plenty of voters were sucked in by beliefs, same as they are here, but there are lots of voters in America who votes for him as least worst. And these are the centre ground, the ones that don't like him, but still voted republican, and won him the election.

In fact to simplify it in the way you have Dekka is precisely one of the reasons he got in. There's plenty of voters who dislike Trump but felt they couldn't vote democrat for reasons of policy. To simply lump in everyone as getting taken in by populism without looking more closely at policies and the reasons the centre ground were put off voting democrat is actually one of the main reasons Brexit won, Trump won, and Johnson won.

He won on a ticket of a particular type of patriotism, making America great again and to be kind xenophobia. This was all backed up with a torrent of ahem ‘fake news’. What great policies did he have? What awful policies did Clinton have? Sounds like a familiar tactic, I wonder what other country adopted similar tactics? Popularism is teenage tantrum way of running a country.

I think economic policies had a lot to do with it. I don't disagree with what you say about populism (this definitely fires up a type of voter), but I do believe the centre ground/floating vote is real and has a massive impact in swing states. And I think the economic policies appealed to enough of these voters to swing it to Trump.

(10-09-2020, 11:50 AM)Fall Out Boy Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:23 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: He's not just a 'tool' or an 'idiot' though. George Bush was an idiot, David Cameron was a tool. Trump is a racist, RAPIST, tax-avoiding, delusional, science-denying utter utter scumbag who endorses white supremacists and is one of the main reasons 210k US citizens are dead from covid. He should be in a secure psychiatric unit not the white house. A psychiatrist friend said to me that if anyone else had said what he said in his recent speech (about having the best body ever, recovering from covid quicker than anyone and having 'USA' instead of 'DNA') they'd be sectioned immediately.

See this is what I mean when I said people were 'frothing at the mouth' about his election. Throwing out all these accusations, but with very little back-up; they may all be true, but the words have been devalued as people throw them around willy-nilly these days.

As for his endorsement of white supremacists, the video clips I've seen see him denounce them. Yes, even from the debate he had with Biden - he does denounce them, but people were already talking over him because they assumed he wouldn't.

At the end of the day, the easiest way to get rid of him is let him talk. Give him fair coverage. Explain what he is doing, and why he is doing it. Factual stuff, like why he tweets about specific companies (to manipulate the stock market, etc). Instead of just labelling him with accusations, tell people what he is doing. Tell people why. Give him enough rope to hang himself and provide an alternative. It's that simple, but people would rather brand people with words than actually win the argument - such as Clinton's 'basket of deplorables' comment.

Totally agree. The MSM hardly covers policies, what is going one etc. Its too busy spending 90% of the time on something outrageous that he's tweeted, which completely plays into his hands.
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#15
As Farage said, Populism is popular.

And sadly it's here to stay, hence the world is truly fucked.
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#16
(10-09-2020, 11:50 AM)Fall Out Boy Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:23 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: He's not just a 'tool' or an 'idiot' though. George Bush was an idiot, David Cameron was a tool. Trump is a racist, RAPIST, tax-avoiding, delusional, science-denying utter utter scumbag who endorses white supremacists and is one of the main reasons 210k US citizens are dead from covid. He should be in a secure psychiatric unit not the white house. A psychiatrist friend said to me that if anyone else had said what he said in his recent speech (about having the best body ever, recovering from covid quicker than anyone and having 'USA' instead of 'DNA') they'd be sectioned immediately.

See this is what I mean when I said people were 'frothing at the mouth' about his election. Throwing out all these accusations, but with very little back-up; they may all be true, but the words have been devalued as people throw them around willy-nilly these days.

As for his endorsement of white supremacists, the video clips I've seen see him denounce them. Yes, even from the debate he had with Biden - he does denounce them, but people were already talking over him because they assumed he wouldn't.

At the end of the day, the easiest way to get rid of him is let him talk. Give him fair coverage. Explain what he is doing, and why he is doing it. Factual stuff, like why he tweets about specific companies (to manipulate the stock market, etc). Instead of just labelling him with accusations, tell people what he is doing. Tell people why. Give him enough rope to hang himself and provide an alternative. It's that simple, but people would rather brand people with words than actually win the argument - such as Clinton's 'basket of deplorables' comment.

He has a ludicrous amount of airtime to tell everyone what he thinks. He’s hardly been shut down by the likes of Fox News is he? The facts and rational argument don’t cut through with his base support. How many statements that he has made have been proven not to be true? You can calmly argue with facts but people belief’s make this a futile task. Dare I use the Brexit example where you can disprove argument after argument for leaving with cold hard facts but will that budge an ardent Brexiteer? This is the psychology at play in the US and U.K. currently this has nothing to do with policies and rational thought and everything to do with belief and feelings.
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#17
Keeping the traditional 'conservative' support on side whilst appealing to those less fortunate, unhappy with their lot in life with lots of empty promises and ideas of who is to blame for their ills. Roughly the same as Brexit and our last two general elections.

Not helped of course by calling supporters of this type of politics "thick" at every turn and coupled with people's refusal to accept the result of a vote (see also Brexit) will lead to his support growing even further.

He's a waste of space. Given millions by his father, bankrupt more times than I've had hot dinners and through "hard work and determination" (not paying any tax) has managed to turn hundreds of millions into billions. If Biden keeps his nose clean (and clear of Covid) he should be in the White House come the new year. But never underestimate the power of an electorate to tell pollsters and those who tell them they're "thick" to fuck off. It will be far closer than many are currently predicting.
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#18
(10-09-2020, 12:02 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 11:50 AM)Fall Out Boy Wrote:
(10-09-2020, 10:23 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: He's not just a 'tool' or an 'idiot' though. George Bush was an idiot, David Cameron was a tool. Trump is a racist, RAPIST, tax-avoiding, delusional, science-denying utter utter scumbag who endorses white supremacists and is one of the main reasons 210k US citizens are dead from covid. He should be in a secure psychiatric unit not the white house. A psychiatrist friend said to me that if anyone else had said what he said in his recent speech (about having the best body ever, recovering from covid quicker than anyone and having 'USA' instead of 'DNA') they'd be sectioned immediately.

See this is what I mean when I said people were 'frothing at the mouth' about his election. Throwing out all these accusations, but with very little back-up; they may all be true, but the words have been devalued as people throw them around willy-nilly these days.

As for his endorsement of white supremacists, the video clips I've seen see him denounce them. Yes, even from the debate he had with Biden - he does denounce them, but people were already talking over him because they assumed he wouldn't.

At the end of the day, the easiest way to get rid of him is let him talk. Give him fair coverage. Explain what he is doing, and why he is doing it. Factual stuff, like why he tweets about specific companies (to manipulate the stock market, etc). Instead of just labelling him with accusations, tell people what he is doing. Tell people why. Give him enough rope to hang himself and provide an alternative. It's that simple, but people would rather brand people with words than actually win the argument - such as Clinton's 'basket of deplorables' comment.

He has a ludicrous amount of airtime to tell everyone what he thinks. He’s hardly been shut down by the likes of Fox News is he? The facts and rational argument don’t cut through with his base support. How many statements that he has made have been proven not to be true? You can calmly argue with facts but people belief’s make this a futile task. Dare I use the Brexit example where you can disprove argument after argument for leaving with cold hard facts but will that budge an ardent Brexiteer? This is the psychology at play in the US and U.K. currently this has nothing to do with policies and rational thought and everything to do with belief and feelings.

The problem is Derek, I believe calmly arguing with facts DOES work, for the centre ground and floating voter. That's the problem, and happened with brexit as well, anyone undecided (for whatever reason) was basically told they're racist or an idiot if they vote that way, rather than being persuaded by sensible arguments or facts. That does not work!

You point out that facts won't budge an ardent brexiteer. Of course it won't! It won't budge a Trump cap wearing hardened Trump supporter either! But there are many many people who are on the fence and vote least worst, or are to be persuaded either way. Trump/Farage "pretend" to listen (even if it is bull). Their opposition screams "racist", or "moron" at anyone who is thinking of voting for them. That does not work. It actually helps the Trumps and the Farage's of this world.

So you're right about pyschology being at play. However, unless the opposition to such populism wakes up and realises that the tactics employed are actually having the reverse effect, then it'll continue to succeed.

(10-09-2020, 12:10 PM)Ted Maul Wrote: Keeping the traditional 'conservative' support on side whilst appealing to those less fortunate, unhappy with their lot in life with lots of empty promises and ideas of who is to blame for their ills. Roughly the same as Brexit and our last two general elections.

Not helped of course by calling supporters of this type of politics "thick" at every turn and coupled with people's refusal to accept the result of a vote (see also Brexit) will lead to his support growing even further.

He's a waste of space. Given millions by his father, bankrupt more times than I've had hot dinners and through "hard work and determination" (not paying any tax) has managed to turn hundreds of millions into billions. If Biden keeps his nose clean (and clear of Covid) he should be in the White House come the new year. But never underestimate the power of an electorate to tell pollsters and those who tell them they're "thick" to fuck off. It will be far closer than many are currently predicting.

Totally agree. You explained it better than I did!
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#19
If you want entertainment at this point you should want him to lose. It's going to be an absolute shitshow
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#20
I think a few posters on here give the UK and US electorate far too much credit. 'stop calling them thick and they'll see sense' doesn't hold water I'm afraid. I'm with Dekka here, people have long since picked their side and the idea of the 'floating voter' who actually reads each manifesto and can be persuaded with rational argument is mostly a fantasy. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

The only way to get rid of the Trumps of the world is to mobilise the opposition more effectively than he can mobilise his mob.

ps I don't think I'm frothing at the mouth and every accusation at Trump is entirely demonstrable.
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