The Next Culture War
#1
Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.
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#2
I’m not sure that Public Sector pensions are going to supply the  Largess they did before and you are suggesting here. My Son-in- Law is a firefighter and their new pension which they had imposed on them (and their union did role over basically) means he will now have to work until he is at least 66, even if still on a watch and going out in an engine. They have to do forty years in the service, which he will fall short and therefore have a reduced pension. They also had a massive hike in contributions. There is also not the job security in Public Sector employment has there used to be. So I’m not convinced private and public sector workers are going to be at each other throats as you are inferring.
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#3
You have a choice what sector you work in. Yours a Libertarian

Currently a bunch of them and associated private companies are trying to pretend the failures of the private sector are the fault of Public Health. Both the public and private sectors need each other, what they don’t need is a sustained attempt to blame the NHS etc for the failure of a very well rewarded private company.

I thought the argument that things should be ran by private companies was they would be more accountable and awarded contracts on merit?

Alice will never wake up.
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#4
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Is this some sort of fantasy wish.

On pensions my wife works for the NHS if she gets a decent pension when she retire, and i mean if, it will have a lot to do with the very large contributions she has to make every month.
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#5
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Having worked in both, life in the private sector is way, way, way more cushty than the public sector. Way more. Private sector pay has overtaken public sector pay. Most people in the public sector are now on average salary pensions, not final salary. The work benefits you get in the private sector are larger. I never, ever got mileage in the public sector. Ever. They'd stick you on public transport first.

What you'd like to do is compare doctors and politicians to the vast majority of public sector workers, who don't get anything like those kinds of wages.

But having been a lurker around here for sometime, I think you need to lay off the Joe Rogan and perhaps spend less time on YT falling down a well of right wing bile.
But I suppose it's easier to attack the cleaner earning minimum wage's pension than Amazon for paying £293m tax on an income of £13.73bn and then not compensating it's staff suitably, also whilst on a forum about a sport where some people are earning the same in a week as 3 cleaners would earn in a year for kicking a bag of air around.

If you don't like what you get in the private sector, get a job in the public sector.
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#6
(10-05-2020, 10:47 AM)albionpeej Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Having worked in both, life in the private sector is way, way, way more cushty than the public sector. Way more. Private sector pay has overtaken public sector pay. Most people in the public sector are now on average salary pensions, not final salary. The work benefits you get in the private sector are larger. I never, ever got mileage in the public sector. Ever. They'd stick you on public transport first.

What you'd like to do is compare doctors and politicians to the vast majority of public sector workers, who don't get anything like those kinds of wages.

But having been a lurker around here for sometime, I think you need to lay off the Joe Rogan and perhaps spend less time on YT falling down a well of right wing bile.
But I suppose it's easier to attack the cleaner earning minimum wage's pension than Amazon for paying £293m tax on an income of £13.73bn and then not compensating it's staff suitably, also whilst on a forum about a sport where some people are earning the same in a week as 3 cleaners would earn in a year for kicking a bag of air around.

If you don't like what you get in the private sector, get a job in the public sector.

Both factually incorrect.

The rest of your post is just bizarre. I've worked in both sectors too. Your point about mileage is ludicrous - you could've claimed this yourself in your tax return anyway and it pales into insiginificance compared with employer pension contributions (and a defined benefit pension).

I'm not attacking anyone, least of all a cleaner on minimum wage - though being on minimum wage is far better in the public sector due to job security and pensions etc. What my point about employees has to do with Amazon I'm not sure and who the fuck is Joe Rogan?

Maybe you should stick to lurking.

(10-05-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You have a choice what sector you work in. Yours a Libertarian

Currently a bunch of them and associated private companies are trying to pretend the failures of the private sector are the fault of Public Health. Both the public and private sectors need each other, what they don’t need is a sustained attempt to blame the NHS etc for the failure of a very well rewarded private company.

I thought the argument that things should be ran by private companies was they would be more accountable and awarded contracts on merit?

Alice will never wake up.

I'm talking about employees. Not sure what you're talking about.
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#7
(10-05-2020, 11:12 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:47 AM)albionpeej Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Having worked in both, life in the private sector is way, way, way more cushty than the public sector. Way more. Private sector pay has overtaken public sector pay. Most people in the public sector are now on average salary pensions, not final salary. The work benefits you get in the private sector are larger. I never, ever got mileage in the public sector. Ever. They'd stick you on public transport first.

What you'd like to do is compare doctors and politicians to the vast majority of public sector workers, who don't get anything like those kinds of wages.

But having been a lurker around here for sometime, I think you need to lay off the Joe Rogan and perhaps spend less time on YT falling down a well of right wing bile.
But I suppose it's easier to attack the cleaner earning minimum wage's pension than Amazon for paying £293m tax on an income of £13.73bn and then not compensating it's staff suitably, also whilst on a forum about a sport where some people are earning the same in a week as 3 cleaners would earn in a year for kicking a bag of air around.

If you don't like what you get in the private sector, get a job in the public sector.

Both factually incorrect.

The rest of your post is just bizarre. I've worked in both sectors too. Your point about mileage is ludicrous - you could've claimed this yourself in your tax return anyway and it pales into insiginificance compared with employer pension contributions (and a defined benefit pension).

I'm not attacking anyone, least of all a cleaner on minimum wage - though being on minimum wage is far better in the public sector due to job security and pensions etc. What my point about employees has to do with Amazon I'm not sure and who the fuck is Joe Rogan?

Maybe you should stick to lurking.

(10-05-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You have a choice what sector you work in. Yours a Libertarian

Currently a bunch of them and associated private companies are trying to pretend the failures of the private sector are the fault of Public Health. Both the public and private sectors need each other, what they don’t need is a sustained attempt to blame the NHS etc for the failure of a very well rewarded private company.

I thought the argument that things should be ran by private companies was they would be more accountable and awarded contracts on merit?

Alice will never wake up.

I'm talking about employees. Not sure what you're talking about.

You’re trying to set-up an us and them narrative when the two sectors are dependant on each other to work at their optimum.
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#8
Ah, I see you have a subscription to The Times as well.

In my opinion, public sector vs private sector is missing the point. There are far fewer benefits to staying in the public sector these days aside from job security, the gap is so much smaller. The issues being raised seem to be more about capacity to work and the role of work, which adds in a chunk of the private sector to run parallel with the public sector against another chunk of the private sector. The friction between the two sectors has very little to do with the workers and more to do with the government issuing stupid and arbitrary rules that they change on a whim.

Regarding the pensions issue, people in the public sector just don't get the gold plated final salary pensions they used to. Last time this was looked at the majority was getting less than £5k as a pension with the mean still only going up to around £7500, the people at the top end are very few and far between nowadays.
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#9
(10-05-2020, 11:12 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:47 AM)albionpeej Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Having worked in both, life in the private sector is way, way, way more cushty than the public sector. Way more. Private sector pay has overtaken public sector pay. Most people in the public sector are now on average salary pensions, not final salary. The work benefits you get in the private sector are larger. I never, ever got mileage in the public sector. Ever. They'd stick you on public transport first.

What you'd like to do is compare doctors and politicians to the vast majority of public sector workers, who don't get anything like those kinds of wages.

But having been a lurker around here for sometime, I think you need to lay off the Joe Rogan and perhaps spend less time on YT falling down a well of right wing bile.
But I suppose it's easier to attack the cleaner earning minimum wage's pension than Amazon for paying £293m tax on an income of £13.73bn and then not compensating it's staff suitably, also whilst on a forum about a sport where some people are earning the same in a week as 3 cleaners would earn in a year for kicking a bag of air around.

If you don't like what you get in the private sector, get a job in the public sector.

Both factually incorrect.

The rest of your post is just bizarre. I've worked in both sectors too. Your point about mileage is ludicrous - you could've claimed this yourself in your tax return anyway and it pales into insiginificance compared with employer pension contributions (and a defined benefit pension).

I'm not attacking anyone, least of all a cleaner on minimum wage - though being on minimum wage is far better in the public sector due to job security and pensions etc. What my point about employees has to do with Amazon I'm not sure and who the fuck is Joe Rogan?

Maybe you should stick to lurking.

(10-05-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You have a choice what sector you work in. Yours a Libertarian

Currently a bunch of them and associated private companies are trying to pretend the failures of the private sector are the fault of Public Health. Both the public and private sectors need each other, what they don’t need is a sustained attempt to blame the NHS etc for the failure of a very well rewarded private company.

I thought the argument that things should be ran by private companies was they would be more accountable and awarded contracts on merit?

Alice will never wake up.

I'm talking about employees. Not sure what you're talking about.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabo...2017-11-16
"Public sector workers earned 1% less per hour, on average, than private sector workers with equivalent characteristics in 2016"
Oh come on son, your agenda is clear. Perhaps you should stick to the dark web.
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#10
(10-05-2020, 02:25 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Ah, I see you have a subscription to The Times as well.

In my opinion, public sector vs private sector is missing the point. There are far fewer benefits to staying in the public sector these days aside from job security, the gap is so much smaller. The issues being raised seem to be more about capacity to work and the role of work, which adds in a chunk of the private sector to run parallel with the public sector against another chunk of the private sector. The friction between the two sectors has very little to do with the workers and more to do with the government issuing stupid and arbitrary rules that they change on a whim.

Regarding the pensions issue, people in the public sector just don't get the gold plated final salary pensions they used to. Last time this was looked at the majority was getting less than £5k as a pension with the mean still only going up to around £7500, the people at the top end are very few and far between nowadays.

MoneyWeek is a great read too.

You speak about £5K as a public sector pension as meagre. What do you think similar private sector workers in Auto Enrolment will be taking home? They'll be lucky if it's £1000. Auto Enrolment ought to be exposed as the greatest misselling scandal in history.

I'm really quite interested in the "far fewer" benefits to remaining in the public sector. When I worked there it was fixed 38-hour week, 25 days annual leave plus Bank Hoiliday "Tuesdays" + up to 24 days flexi leave. Free parking behind the NIA, essential car user allowance and mileage, final salary pension scheme (mine's still worth a 1/3 of my SIPP despite only 5 years service on modest pay v 20 outside public sector). Has it really altered that much?

I think the friction will occur if low paid workers in the private sector ever recognise how much better off low paid workers are in the public sector, and how they have zero prospect of ever catching up - particularly in pension terms.

(10-05-2020, 02:52 PM)albionpeej Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 11:12 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:47 AM)albionpeej Wrote:
(10-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Protheroe Wrote: Several articles on this over the last few weeks in the the press and online.

The next culture war in the UK will be Public v Private sector employees. Covid has served to magnify the inequality in pay, job security and pension provision.

Zero interest rates will only make the chronic underfunding of private pensions (and fantasy funding of public sector defined benefit pensions) even more polarised, and even less justifiable than at present. As I suggested the other day, individuals and corporations will not wear further tax increases to fund the state's largesse without finding new and exciting ways to avoid them, certainly not without a quid pro quo from the public sector - austerity? Probably not. But there needs to be a really serious conversation about waste, technological transformation of public sector services and pensions.

Don't expect the unions to take that lying down. A decade or more of strife is on the cards - whichever party is in power.

Having worked in both, life in the private sector is way, way, way more cushty than the public sector. Way more. Private sector pay has overtaken public sector pay. Most people in the public sector are now on average salary pensions, not final salary. The work benefits you get in the private sector are larger. I never, ever got mileage in the public sector. Ever. They'd stick you on public transport first.

What you'd like to do is compare doctors and politicians to the vast majority of public sector workers, who don't get anything like those kinds of wages.

But having been a lurker around here for sometime, I think you need to lay off the Joe Rogan and perhaps spend less time on YT falling down a well of right wing bile.
But I suppose it's easier to attack the cleaner earning minimum wage's pension than Amazon for paying £293m tax on an income of £13.73bn and then not compensating it's staff suitably, also whilst on a forum about a sport where some people are earning the same in a week as 3 cleaners would earn in a year for kicking a bag of air around.

If you don't like what you get in the private sector, get a job in the public sector.

Both factually incorrect.

The rest of your post is just bizarre. I've worked in both sectors too. Your point about mileage is ludicrous - you could've claimed this yourself in your tax return anyway and it pales into insiginificance compared with employer pension contributions (and a defined benefit pension).

I'm not attacking anyone, least of all a cleaner on minimum wage - though being on minimum wage is far better in the public sector due to job security and pensions etc. What my point about employees has to do with Amazon I'm not sure and who the fuck is Joe Rogan?

Maybe you should stick to lurking.

(10-05-2020, 10:43 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You have a choice what sector you work in. Yours a Libertarian

Currently a bunch of them and associated private companies are trying to pretend the failures of the private sector are the fault of Public Health. Both the public and private sectors need each other, what they don’t need is a sustained attempt to blame the NHS etc for the failure of a very well rewarded private company.

I thought the argument that things should be ran by private companies was they would be more accountable and awarded contracts on merit?

Alice will never wake up.

I'm talking about employees. Not sure what you're talking about.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabo...2017-11-16
"Public sector workers earned 1% less per hour, on average, than private sector workers with equivalent characteristics in 2016"
Oh come on son, your agenda is clear. Perhaps you should stick to the dark web.

You should really read the stuff you post before you post it.

"Not taking into account number of hours worked or additional benefits like pension contributions, company cars or health insurance."

"The public sector workforce is shrinking, with some lower paid jobs shifting to the private sector."

These figures are also at odds with more recent studies which suggest the public sector pay premium is opening again towards 10%.
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