Leicester Localised Lockdown
#31
I tried really hard not to imply it was your opinion as I didn't want to put words in your mouth, sorry if it seemed like that.

As for gay parenting, it's literally being prejudice against gay people, that their sexuality acts as a hindrance to their ability to be parents. That's textbook homophobia, it meets the dictionary definition. I don't see how you can't say it isn't homophobic to think that. Whether that belief is borne out of bigotry or ignorance (hence me distinguishing between the two) is debatable but at this point if you still hold that view in modern society then you're either one of those two when it comes to the issue at hand. It's the same with racism, anti-semetism etc with regards to the application of prejudice. It's not like it's even unique to humans, a lot of bird and mammal species have same-sex pairings raising young and even female birds donating eggs to male couple birds to raise is hardly an unknown quantity.

Parental ability is down to the individuals, I'm pretty certain that two loving gay men in a stable home environment world be a better place to raise a child than a dysfunctional nuclear family where neither parent really cares. The issue over father or mother figures could be addressed through other people as it is for kids who have a mum and a dad. A lot of gay people go through adoption and I'm pretty confident that is a healthier way to raise a child than the uncertainty of the foster care system that the child would otherwise go through. There's a risk of teasing the kid at school over having two mums or two dads but that's way less of an issue nowadays given people are a lot more open and receptive to gay people and things like Section 28 are history in the UK.

As for voting patterns, I think you're putting far too much weight behind it being a factor in why one person might vote a certain way to be honest. There was a pretty strong anti-socialist sentiment in Britain from the 1930s to the 1980s yet socialists never held the balance of power. In my opinion, people voted Brexit due to deep rooted issues in UK politics in this country which have manifested themselves in England as anti-EU sentiment and in Scotland as the pro-Indy movement. I'm not certain about the US but given the areas that voted most strongly for Trump have very little going for them (West Virginia) I'd say the same happened there, or how the areas of France with high levels of unemployment voted Front National.
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#32
(06-29-2020, 08:24 AM)baggy1 Wrote: By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias.

In my experience, giving bigots mainsteam airtime has quite the opposite effect of providing confirmation bias. Don't you remeber the glorious defenestration of Nick Griffin on BBC QT?

If you want confirmation bias you'll gravitate towards the filthy ends of You Tube, Facebook and TOR.

You have to give extremism daylight, otherwise - like a mushroom patch - it'll thrive in the shade.

And by extremism, I mean of left and right and religious.
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#33
(06-29-2020, 12:30 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:24 AM)baggy1 Wrote: By giving the airtime to bigots, who can be very intelligent, educated and convincing you will get other bigots receiving confirmation bias.

In my experience, giving bigots mainsteam airtime has quite the opposite effect of providing confirmation bias. Don't you remeber the glorious defenestration of Nick Griffin on BBC QT?

If you want confirmation bias you'll gravitate towards the filthy ends of You Tube, Facebook and TOR.

You have to give extremism daylight, otherwise - like a mushroom patch - it'll thrive in the shade.

And by extremism, I mean of left and right and religious.

If you read my whole post you'll have seen that is what I said, thankfully I couldn't remember his name. The point was that you can do that with Griffin because he is thick but there are many intelligent bigots that know how to prepare and how to come across well - see my reference to Farage in the same post. 

And the general public don't gravitate towards the filthy ends of YouTube etc, if they see someone articulate like Farage that peddles his crap then that will raise the profile of his hidden bigotry and that is the dangerous confirmation bias that is out there.
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#34
(06-29-2020, 11:24 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 11:02 AM)Spandaubaggie Wrote: For instance can it be possible not to agree with gay parenting and not be homophobic?  I would say it is. It doesn't mean you hate gays, but just don't agree that two men raising a child off a surrogate mother is great for the kid and its identity.

Ok, lets take this as an example and expand it, in a reasonable debate manner.

What would you feel the difference is between and male-female couple raising a child from a surrogate mother and a male-male couple?

It appears that it is because you feel the kid and it's identity is not going to be as well off in the mm scenario as opposed to the mf situation. Now, and this is a conclusion that I have assumed from your point, that you feel that having two Dad's will encourage the child to think of that as 'normal' which, again I am assuming, you feel isn't normal. 

Now from that I can assume that you don't consider two men together as normal which is homophobic. Because without knowing any facts in the two Dad scenario apart from them being two men you feel it is wrong, or more to the point different to you.
This is hypothetical. I actually think it is ok for gay parenting. The point was made to illustrate how loaded debates are these days- debates we could have had a while ago.
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#35
Sorry Spandau - it was the "I would say that it is" quote that made it look anything other than hypothetical.
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#36
(06-29-2020, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Sorry Spandau - it was the "I would say that it is" quote that made it look anything other than hypothetical.

That's fine. We prove it's possible to have intelligent debate. Vote for us!
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#37
(06-29-2020, 12:36 PM)baggy1 Wrote: there are many intelligent bigots that know how to prepare and how to come across well 

I'm not sure there are. You mention Nigel Farage, but beyond him?
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#38
Also the notion for certain groups of people to be placed in boxes
Its wrong 
It does nothing to create equality
In fact more likely the opposite

We don't need to know someones sexuality in 2020
Its no ones business

Would you fill in a job application form & have question of

Do you identify as a Villa/Wolves/Albion supporter?

A decent human being is what's important

Is almost as bad as Jews being made to wear a star during the war
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#39
(06-29-2020, 04:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 12:36 PM)baggy1 Wrote: there are many intelligent bigots that know how to prepare and how to come across well 

I'm not sure there are. You mention Nigel Farage, but beyond him?

Boris Johnson, Adolf Hitler

(06-29-2020, 04:25 PM)Pipkins Wrote: Also the notion for certain groups of people to be placed in boxes
Its wrong 
It does nothing to create equality
In fact more likely the opposite

We don't need to know someones sexuality in 2020
Its no ones business

Would you fill in a job application form & have question of

Do you identify as a Villa/Wolves/Albion supporter?

A decent human being is what's important

Is almost as bad as Jews being made to wear a star during the war

1st question I ask at interview - saves a lot of time  Big Grin
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#40
(06-29-2020, 05:30 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 04:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 12:36 PM)baggy1 Wrote: there are many intelligent bigots that know how to prepare and how to come across well 

I'm not sure there are. You mention Nigel Farage, but beyond him?

Boris Johnson, Adolf Hitler

(06-29-2020, 04:25 PM)Pipkins Wrote: Also the notion for certain groups of people to be placed in boxes
Its wrong 
It does nothing to create equality
In fact more likely the opposite

We don't need to know someones sexuality in 2020
Its no ones business

Would you fill in a job application form & have question of

Do you identify as a Villa/Wolves/Albion supporter?

A decent human being is what's important

Is almost as bad as Jews being made to wear a star during the war

1st question I ask at interview - saves a lot of time  Big Grin

When you see what football fans are like it seems they can be a different race. Villa fans are like this, Wolves like that. 
I genuinely know a knucklehead Blues fan who talks about Villa with genuine levels of hatred like they murdered his family.
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