Fishing wars off Shetland
#11
(06-13-2020, 03:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:40 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:35 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:08 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-12-2020, 04:57 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote: The EU aren't the problem.

Holyrood and Westminster's reluctance in policing how the UK quotas operate despite having all the powers to do so, the quotas that were sold by private British individuals in the 90s en masse (more an issue in England than Scotland) to these Spanish and Dutch trawlers and the UK ceding waters to Iceland and Norway are the problems.

What do you expect the EU to do? They'll just come back and say it's the UK's fault for letting people sell the quotas, losing the Cod Wars and not using the powers that they have. The issue over fishing rights is a perfect example of people blaming the EU for something that is the fault of Westminster.
Well I don't think the fishing industry in Shetland or anywhere are idiots that don't know what they are talking about. But this is a common theme, that anything bad under the EU is actually down to Westminster and/or Holyrood, which if true shows that being in the EU is of no benefit to them anyway and makes no difference if they do leave - the EU has been impotent or inactive or both. It is hardly an argument for staying in or an endorsement of the block. They may yet get sold out in negotiations or find that the sea is not greener afterwards, then at least Westminster and Holyrood will have to answer to them, which may promote the help they are looking for, if as you say all the issues these fishermen are complaining about are nothing to do with the EU. Also, if the EU are not really involved in these problems or making a difference, they don't seem to see it that way themselves, as they are fighting very hard to keep things as they are in the Brexit negotiations.

Brexit logic... it becomes possibly (no expert on fishing rights in the Sheltlands ;Wink apparent that sovereign nations have autonomy to make and enforce their own laws so can’t blame EU, so the argument becomes well if that’s the case the EU aren’t interfering enough in UK / Other European disputes so what’s the point. They can’t win with that logic. Thankfully we now have an unelected advisor running the country reassuringly.

Your paraphrasing is getting worse. The dodgy logic is with something not working under the EU having nothing to do with the EU but will somehow be worse if not being in the EU. It is politician speech with an agenda. So I listen to those in the Scottish Fisherman's Federation instead who know the ins and outs of it. Just as I'd listen to those in the Scottish Agricultural Industry who do not want to leave the EU.

The argument by Brexit supporters has always been about the lack of control over our own laws. If and I stress if we do have U.K. law to defend / police fishing waters then blaming the EU for not interfering is unfair criticism. You can’t have your Hake and eat it.

Like I say paraphrasing. I was not blaming the EU for not interfering nor saying that they did not. I was criticising the 'have your hake and eat it' argument that the EU had nothing to do with the fishing issues (which the Scottish Fisherman's Federation do not agree with) but at the same time that leaving the EU would be bad for fishing issues if they had no affect on those issues.
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#12
(06-13-2020, 04:06 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:40 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:35 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:08 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote: Well I don't think the fishing industry in Shetland or anywhere are idiots that don't know what they are talking about. But this is a common theme, that anything bad under the EU is actually down to Westminster and/or Holyrood, which if true shows that being in the EU is of no benefit to them anyway and makes no difference if they do leave - the EU has been impotent or inactive or both. It is hardly an argument for staying in or an endorsement of the block. They may yet get sold out in negotiations or find that the sea is not greener afterwards, then at least Westminster and Holyrood will have to answer to them, which may promote the help they are looking for, if as you say all the issues these fishermen are complaining about are nothing to do with the EU. Also, if the EU are not really involved in these problems or making a difference, they don't seem to see it that way themselves, as they are fighting very hard to keep things as they are in the Brexit negotiations.

Brexit logic... it becomes possibly (no expert on fishing rights in the Sheltlands ;Wink apparent that sovereign nations have autonomy to make and enforce their own laws so can’t blame EU, so the argument becomes well if that’s the case the EU aren’t interfering enough in UK / Other European disputes so what’s the point. They can’t win with that logic. Thankfully we now have an unelected advisor running the country reassuringly.

Your paraphrasing is getting worse. The dodgy logic is with something not working under the EU having nothing to do with the EU but will somehow be worse if not being in the EU. It is politician speech with an agenda. So I listen to those in the Scottish Fisherman's Federation instead who know the ins and outs of it. Just as I'd listen to those in the Scottish Agricultural Industry who do not want to leave the EU.

The argument by Brexit supporters has always been about the lack of control over our own laws. If and I stress if we do have U.K. law to defend / police fishing waters then blaming the EU for not interfering is unfair criticism. You can’t have your Hake and eat it.

Like I say paraphrasing. I was not blaming the EU for not interfering nor saying that they did not. I was criticising the 'have your hake and eat it' argument that the EU had nothing to do with the fishing issues (which the Scottish Fisherman's Federation do not agree with) but at the same time that leaving the EU would be bad for fishing issues if they had no affect on those issues.

It seems to me it’s a very messy situation for all concerned...

Eelon Mess
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#13
(06-13-2020, 04:14 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 04:06 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:40 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:35 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Brexit logic... it becomes possibly (no expert on fishing rights in the Sheltlands ;Wink apparent that sovereign nations have autonomy to make and enforce their own laws so can’t blame EU, so the argument becomes well if that’s the case the EU aren’t interfering enough in UK / Other European disputes so what’s the point. They can’t win with that logic. Thankfully we now have an unelected advisor running the country reassuringly.

Your paraphrasing is getting worse. The dodgy logic is with something not working under the EU having nothing to do with the EU but will somehow be worse if not being in the EU. It is politician speech with an agenda. So I listen to those in the Scottish Fisherman's Federation instead who know the ins and outs of it. Just as I'd listen to those in the Scottish Agricultural Industry who do not want to leave the EU.

The argument by Brexit supporters has always been about the lack of control over our own laws. If and I stress if we do have U.K. law to defend / police fishing waters then blaming the EU for not interfering is unfair criticism. You can’t have your Hake and eat it.

Like I say paraphrasing. I was not blaming the EU for not interfering nor saying that they did not. I was criticising the 'have your hake and eat it' argument that the EU had nothing to do with the fishing issues (which the Scottish Fisherman's Federation do not agree with) but at the same time that leaving the EU would be bad for fishing issues if they had no affect on those issues.

It seems to me it’s a very messy situation for all concerned...

Eelon Mess

Certainly does, I would have to be in complete agreement there. And in the end, the fish are still the big losers.
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#14
(06-13-2020, 03:08 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-12-2020, 04:57 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(06-12-2020, 01:50 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-12-2020, 01:43 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-12-2020, 01:31 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote: The confrontations appear to be quite bad at the moment.
Doesn't seem to be properly policed (not sure how you easily can) and so Shetland Islanders keen (well the fish/aquaculture industry related folk, but that's the biggest sector of the economy even more than oil/gas) for no Brexit extension according to this article. 

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/06/12/fi...behaviour/

If only there was a way to work together as nations to resolve these problems...

You mean the EU? In this instance, the EU was the problem, if you read the article - been going on for years and not solved.
That is why the fisher folk want out so desperately.

The EU aren't the problem.

Holyrood and Westminster's reluctance in policing how the UK quotas operate despite having all the powers to do so, the quotas that were sold by private British individuals in the 90s en masse (more an issue in England than Scotland) to these Spanish and Dutch trawlers and the UK ceding waters to Iceland and Norway are the problems.

What do you expect the EU to do? They'll just come back and say it's the UK's fault for letting people sell the quotas, losing the Cod Wars and not using the powers that they have. The issue over fishing rights is a perfect example of people blaming the EU for something that is the fault of Westminster.
Well I don't think the fishing industry in Shetland or anywhere are idiots that don't know what they are talking about. But this is a common theme, that anything bad under the EU is actually down to Westminster and/or Holyrood, which if true shows that being in the EU is of no benefit to them anyway and makes no difference if they do leave - the EU has been impotent or inactive or both. It is hardly an argument for staying in or an endorsement of the block. They may yet get sold out in negotiations or find that the sea is not greener afterwards, then at least Westminster and Holyrood will have to answer to them, which may promote the help they are looking for, if as you say all the issues these fishermen are complaining about are nothing to do with the EU. Also, if the EU are not really involved in these problems or making a difference, they don't seem to see it that way themselves, as they are fighting very hard to keep things as they are in the Brexit negotiations.

The same point could be extended to the fact that the UK seems to be the only country in the EU with major issues with foreign trawlers having significant access to British quota rights and causing issues with locals. If the EU were the ones causing the issues here then how come no other country is having the same problem? The powers over managing quotas are wholly devolved to the individual member states so I don't see why the EU are in any way responsible, the UK (both at national and devolved level) control the legislation over managing how quotas operate, we allowed them to be sold to these big trawlers in the first place and not the EU.

The issue over the EU wanting to keep the UK within the CFP pertains to the EEZ; currently boats from France, Sweden, Belgium, Ireland and the Netherlands are able to fish up to 6 nautical miles from our coast in shared waters but this will not be allowed to continue if we leave the CFP as we'll have exclusive rights. Obviously the fishermen in the affected countries want to be allowed to continue fishing where they have been. The issue relating to large trawler vessels and quota rights that you linked is an entirely independent issue however and I was responding to the EU's jurisdiction regarding that and the unfair blame levied at them.

(06-13-2020, 04:19 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 04:14 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 04:06 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:58 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 03:40 PM)Pickle Rick Wrote: Your paraphrasing is getting worse. The dodgy logic is with something not working under the EU having nothing to do with the EU but will somehow be worse if not being in the EU. It is politician speech with an agenda. So I listen to those in the Scottish Fisherman's Federation instead who know the ins and outs of it. Just as I'd listen to those in the Scottish Agricultural Industry who do not want to leave the EU.

The argument by Brexit supporters has always been about the lack of control over our own laws. If and I stress if we do have U.K. law to defend / police fishing waters then blaming the EU for not interfering is unfair criticism. You can’t have your Hake and eat it.

Like I say paraphrasing. I was not blaming the EU for not interfering nor saying that they did not. I was criticising the 'have your hake and eat it' argument that the EU had nothing to do with the fishing issues (which the Scottish Fisherman's Federation do not agree with) but at the same time that leaving the EU would be bad for fishing issues if they had no affect on those issues.

It seems to me it’s a very messy situation for all concerned...

Eelon Mess

Certainly does, I would have to be in complete agreement there. And in the end, the fish are still the big losers.

The CFP has helped fish a lot if you look at it from an ecological perspective, the TAC limits have helped cod stocks in the North Sea to recover after serious overfishing postwar for example. Obviously we could continue this outside the EU but I guarantee you the fishermen will lobby hard to remove this.
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#15
Welcome to the postmodern world of neoliberalism. I’m not a fisherman anymore, but a vendor of transferable future rights to fish.

So, when the chance comes along to either remain a fisherman and maybe develop my business somehow, I flog off my rights to fish to someone else abroad who will invest in huge super efficient trawlers. That’s what British entrepreneurs do: look at the short term.

I then whine about the deal I made and demand that the commodified rights I sold off are granted to me again.

It ain’t gonna happen. That trawler has sailed.
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#16
(06-13-2020, 07:31 PM)Pneumann Wrote: Welcome to the postmodern world of neoliberalism. I’m not a fisherman anymore, but a vendor of transferable future rights to fish.

So, when the chance comes along to either remain a fisherman and maybe develop my business somehow, I flog off my rights to fish to someone else abroad who will invest in huge super efficient trawlers. That’s what British entrepreneurs do: look at the short term.

I then whine about the deal I made and demand that the commodified rights I sold off are granted to me again.

It ain’t gonna happen. That trawler has sailed.

Just driftering away.
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#17
[Image: ann-cleeves-shetland-series.png?ext=.png]

Am I going to have to get involved and sort this out?
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#18
(06-13-2020, 10:27 PM)Ossian Wrote: [Image: ann-cleeves-shetland-series.png?ext=.png]

Am I going to have to get involved and sort this out?

There will be no more books apparently.... but the TV series didn't follow the books that closely so who knows? Unless they were all up there filming before the lockdown nothing doing at the moment!
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