Schools to open or not?
(05-21-2020, 08:49 PM)igorbalis Wrote:
(05-21-2020, 09:21 AM)WWHO Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 03:11 PM)Fido Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 08:17 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-19-2020, 09:36 PM)The liquidator Wrote: Re repeat fade away

You know when you and Fido try and suggest I’ve got shoed... 

Not hindsight

The last shoe comment I posted was about you proclaiming unions generally had the interests of the country at heart and then JOK gave a raft of reasons to discredit your "off the top of head" comment. There are others, as well.

Well, that was me; and for the record Fido, my hypothesis isn't merely "off the top of my head", it's based on hundreds of man hours unearthing empirical data held in formal archival collections, as well as interviewing rank and file figures in the regional trade union movement (to which i am in no way affiliated).

I haven't had time to respond in full as i've been volunteering full time during the crisis (though, in the future, i'd happily debate this with JOK in DMs as he seems like a fair minded and intelligent bloke), but my point (admittedly one that was made with little detail) was that historically many union leaders, despite adopting fiery anti-establishment rhetoric, have often behind the scenes sought to reign in the radicalism of more militant rank and file members.  The majority of strikes or stoppages mentioned by JOK were wildcat and local in nature, mostly caused by the shop steward movement, not union headquarters.  Whilst i accept there are high profile national stoppages (dockers and miners in particular), many of those that were driven by union bureaucrats involved small yet disproportionately powerful craft organisations seeking to take advantage of national economic or political crisis in order widen their influence on Government or the wider labour movement.

Whilst the image of the uncompromising contrarian 'I'm Alright Jack' national union leader has clearly penetrated the public consciousness, I'd argue that this is somewhat of an exaggeration and each industry/sector has its own unique industrial relations culture and trade union landscape. Some are moderate in nature, some are more radical.  More importantly, they are dynamic, often changing tactics depending on the political or industrial landscapes of the time.

Nonetheless, for every infamous left-wing fire brand General Secretary, there are many conservative ones who have sought to work at institutional level in the national interest.  Iron and steel is a good example.  The ISTC (itself a product of a state-devised initiative) adopted a rigid pro-management, pro-establishment stance throughout its history, culminating in leaders Dai Davies and Lincoln Evans each being handed knighthoods by Conservative Govts.  JOK mentioned Jack Jones, who is often blamed by the public and commentators alike for the Winter of Discontent, yet he'd retired a year earlier and was ostracised by some of his former Executive colleagues for trying to prevent the crisis of 1978/9.  Criticised for being anti-establishment, i'd argue he was a moderate voice in the TUC and the NEDC, whilst being the major proponent of the Social Contract.  Whilst the other 'Terrible Twin' Hugh Scanlon was probably the most militant of all those mentioned by JOK, he was like Jones a proponent of wage controls and limits on strike action during the mid to late 1970s.  Joe Gormley, meanwhile, repeatedly rejected calls from his rank and file to call nationwide strikes and even passed information onto Special Branch in an attempt to undermine his more militant shop stewards such as his successor Arthur Scargill.  He was initially opposed to the action that led to the three-day week, but was persuaded to support the stoppage in order to bring down a Edward Heath Government that had tried to force through the draconian Industrial Relations Act.

The 1984/5 miner's strike is an interesting case study that actually could be used to disprove my overall hypothesis of the moderate leader.  Whilst the focus is naturally on the twat with the cap from Barnsley, very little attention is paid to the hundreds of members led by the likes of Chris Butcher who ultimately undermined their own leadership and brought an end to the stoppage.

My original post was clumsy, but the point i was trying to make was that, if you look at the empirical evidence hidden away in official trade union archives, there's many many examples of union executives fighting to reign in their members in an often vein attempt to maintain industrial peace.  Trade union leaders, by their very nature, are part of the establishment and many have secretly spent huge amounts of time and energy harnessing bellicose regional officers or local shop stewards.

I'm really no apologist for militant unionism and my work celebrates the moderation of Black Country trade unionists.

PS i agree that Bob Crow was a bit of a bell end.
Don't get me started...

Chris butcher was financed by the rich to undermine his fellow miners' fight for jobs.

utter scab

Fascinating character.

Known as 'Silver Birch' or 'Dutch Elm', depending on which side of the fence you're on.

In the handful of contemporary interviews i've seen with him he seems frustrated at not profiting financially from his anti-strike activities.  I'd say that just about sums him up.
This all seems to boil down to people just listening to what people say rather than watching what they do.

You can say this about Johnson, corbyn, trump, the chinese government and erm.... Berahino!
Independent Sage 

Who to trust?
Need some help with this one, am I missing something? The linked article on the Beeb about risks to kids shows a total of 41,086 deaths as at May 8th, the daily update today shows 36,393 deaths. Now I know there are different figures between deaths related to Coronavirus and excess deaths for the year but both of these articles point towards coronavirus deaths recorded.

What am I missing?
(05-22-2020, 12:26 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Independent Sage 

Who to trust?

"Independent" Big Grin
(05-22-2020, 02:07 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(05-22-2020, 12:26 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Independent Sage 

Who to trust?

"Independent" Big Grin

Well it’s either that or be / not be guided by science’ and a cabinet that’s a stranger to the truth.

I seem to remember some that sit on the group saying herd immunity was a bad idea, that we should lock down earlier and testing was imperative.


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